the fine line between 91 and 135

[mcjohn]

I think its O.K. to be a little paranoid embarking on some flights when it comes to weather etc.. but regs. yeah I guess that's not worth it. I don't like breaking black and white rules that show your character if caught. But before my personal limits are exceeded I've been a little gripped and thought "I can't believe I'm doing this." Like climbing out in snow with my wife on board from an airport with no appoaches. That stuff gets me a little gripped.

 

[avbug]

What does it mean to "get gripped?"

 

[mcjohn]

What does it mean to "get gripped?"

It really means to grip something tightly when you're a little scared or paraniod etc... I'm not using it correctly 'cause I never grip the yoke tighly but I'm sure you get the point.
My buddy and I would always say we were "gripped" running class V+ waterfalls in our creek boats and that was using it correctly. The shaft to the kayak paddle is what we were gripping for dear life.

Do I get a top gun "Your dangerous!" I actually was foolish and extrememly dangerous in my boating days and now my shoulders are fried as a consequence. I try hard to not let that nature I used to have cross into aviation.

 

[av8rbama]

Avbug, thanks for your great breakdown of the issue. In commercial training, you hear so much about "common carriage" and "holding out" but for myself, being inexperienced in 135 ops at this point, all I could see was red flags. Sure I've read the regs, taken the commercial written/practical, but you really never understand until you get into that type of operation or have someone explain it to you as you have done here.

I never thought the fact the lawyer rented the plane was relevant and could not figure out for the life of me why this was even brought up in the first place. It was as if I were being talked into doing something. I, for one, don't appreciate that. Then when she said it was a 91 op before I could even question the issue was a red flag.

I am not employed by these people, this is strictly on a freelance basis and honestly, I don't need any more 210 time... 700 hours and counting. The only thing I stand to lose with these folks is few hours of dual in their Citation, and there's NO time in ANY airplane that's worth me risking my ticket like that...

 

[TurboS7]

There is no fine line, if you get paid for it it is Part 135. The FAA just doesn't have time to chase everyone. Really it is more like if you are Part 135 then you are a liability to the government so they have to make sure you have your act together. When you are doing illegal Part 135 they could care less.

 

[FN FAL]

There is no fine line, if you get paid for it it is Part 135. The FAA just doesn't have time to chase everyone. Really it is more like if you are Part 135 then you are a liability to the government so they have to make sure you have your act together. When you are doing illegal Part 135 they could care less.

From what I heard, they just nailed a father son combo in the manitowoc/sheboygan area, a few months ago.

 

[avbug]

For a government agency that could care less, the FAA spends a lot of time and effort pursuing and enforcing violations of Part 119 and 135. Most absolutely the FAA could and does care, and does take enforcement action against violators whenever possible.

Ironically, the most common source of the FAA finding out about these indescretions is competitors who are paying the hefty insurance and expense involved with keeping an active, clean 135 certificate. Illegal charter isn't uncommon, nor is FAA enforcement action for the same. Imagine the legitimate certificate holder who shells out cash and credit hand and foot to stay in business, and then learns of others performing illegal charter. Think that legitimate operator won't turn you in? Think again.

 

[mcjohn]

You're darned tootin! My post way back told of a situation where the FAA showed up to a tiny little flight school to question the CFI about the trip to the Bahamas. The folks that told were the competitors who had a legit 135 operation out of the same building. Sounds like you're just rationalizing your illegal situation.

 

[av8rbama]

I just got another call from this same FBO to do another 134 1/2 operation... this time it was the line guy making the call. I asked him who would be paying me to fly and he said "we will." Red flag again... I had another great out, there is no way I could make the trip. I'm thinking of stopping by one day next week and share my concerns with the people running the show over there and explain to them that I'm just trying to protect myself and my career in aviation.

Avbug (or anyone else), I understand from your comprehensive list of scenarios that if the person in need of the pilot services rents the airplane and that person contacts me and pays me himself and no one else is paying him for a seat or some sort of cargo to be delivered it is a private operation, the responsibility is shared between myself and the person requiring my services. It is black and white. However, what is the consequence of that person calling me because my name is on a list of available 210 instructors at said FBO? I'm not sure where this falls under the notion of "holding out."

 

[FN FAL]

However, what is the consequence of that person calling me because my name is on a list of available 210 instructors at said FBO? I'm not sure where this falls under the notion of "holding out."

That's the problem. At the very least, the FBO could be accused of holding out because they use you as a CFI and they rent planes to the customer. They are providing both plane and pilot.

Lets look at a different scenario...

Some guy advertises renting and leasing of a 300 series Cessna. He meets all requirements for renting out the plane.

Your advertisement for pilot services is right next to this ad and you list among other things, your qualifications for flying, which include 500 PIC in 300 series Cessna's.

If a guy calls up the renter and purchases ten hours of block time in the 300 series Cessna and then calls you up and wants you to fly the rented plane all over the place, can any of these acts be construed as holding out to the public?

What if you and the guy are roommates? What if you and the guy are married? Do any of these behind the scenes "situations" change anything in regards to holding out?

 

[mcjohn]

Just get AOPA Commercial Pilot legal services for $52 a year and rest easy. I've heard really good things about their legal service program. Sounds like there is enough gray in the situation to do it without too much fear or guilt (especially if you have AOPA's lawyers on your side) I bet those guys would LOVE defending you against the FAA in a situation such as this. Also, if you pay into it you can just call and ask them instead of taking chances with all the pilots opinions on this forum. I have learned that info on this forum should be taken with a grain of salt ya know?

 

[FN FAL]

Just get AOPA Commercial Pilot legal services for $52 a year and rest easy.... I have learned that info on this forum should be taken with a grain of salt ya know?

You're contradicting yourself.

 

[av8rbama]

You're contradicting yourself.

Haha, too funny.

Yeah, I've got the AOPA legal services plan. I've had it ever since I first joined AOPA but thankfully have never needed it.

However, when you dig yourself into a hole involving gross neglegence of black-and-white regulations, even the best of lawyers have a tough time getting you out of it (except for Jackie Chiles "Of course a bra's not going to fit over a leotard" :laugh: ). You can't just buy a legal services plan and expect them to have your back no matter what you do.

Gotta quit thinking about this today, my wife has already told me to quit worrying about it... too many scenarios, my head is about to explode.

 

[FN FAL]

Haha, too funny.

Yeah, I've got the AOPA legal services plan. I've had it ever since I first joined AOPA but thankfully have never needed it.

However, when you dig yourself into a hole involving gross neglegence of black-and-white regulations, even the best of lawyers have a tough time getting you out of it (except for Jackie Chiles "Of course a bra's not going to fit over a leotard" :laugh: ). You can't just buy a legal services plan and expect them to have your back no matter what you do.

Gotta quit thinking about this today, my wife has already told me to quit worrying about it... too many scenarios, my head is about to explode.

Yea, it is kind of a dilemma. You need flight time to get up in the world, but yet you must stay on the up and up to keep your record un blemished.

I did a lot of flying with my own plane and a rented plane for my employer. They re-embursed me for the time on my plane and my employer paid the bill on the rental plane. The company I worked for built specialty machinery for the paper industry, so we did a lot of field service and sales trips. Since the flying was incidental to business, I was able to draw company pay while flying the aircraft. I was working there as a field service tech and machine assembler...so it was real convenient for them and me to be able to do this type of flying.

 

[mcjohn]

Good point, that was a little contradicting.

BTW, I keep meaning to put up a resume on those local job websites kind of hoping to do something part time that might allow me to fly a little for the job. Any advice on a niche I should look into FN FAL. My only sales experience is lawn and garden/plumbing at Sears. My only technical experience is audio engineering (which I'm not into anymore) and flying.