the fine line between 91 and 135

[FN FAL]

There is no fine line, if you get paid for it it is Part 135. The FAA just doesn't have time to chase everyone. Really it is more like if you are Part 135 then you are a liability to the government so they have to make sure you have your act together. When you are doing illegal Part 135 they could care less.

From what I heard, they just nailed a father son combo in the manitowoc/sheboygan area, a few months ago.

 

[avbug]

For a government agency that could care less, the FAA spends a lot of time and effort pursuing and enforcing violations of Part 119 and 135. Most absolutely the FAA could and does care, and does take enforcement action against violators whenever possible.

Ironically, the most common source of the FAA finding out about these indescretions is competitors who are paying the hefty insurance and expense involved with keeping an active, clean 135 certificate. Illegal charter isn't uncommon, nor is FAA enforcement action for the same. Imagine the legitimate certificate holder who shells out cash and credit hand and foot to stay in business, and then learns of others performing illegal charter. Think that legitimate operator won't turn you in? Think again.

 

[mcjohn]

You're darned tootin! My post way back told of a situation where the FAA showed up to a tiny little flight school to question the CFI about the trip to the Bahamas. The folks that told were the competitors who had a legit 135 operation out of the same building. Sounds like you're just rationalizing your illegal situation.

 

[av8rbama]

I just got another call from this same FBO to do another 134 1/2 operation... this time it was the line guy making the call. I asked him who would be paying me to fly and he said "we will." Red flag again... I had another great out, there is no way I could make the trip. I'm thinking of stopping by one day next week and share my concerns with the people running the show over there and explain to them that I'm just trying to protect myself and my career in aviation.

Avbug (or anyone else), I understand from your comprehensive list of scenarios that if the person in need of the pilot services rents the airplane and that person contacts me and pays me himself and no one else is paying him for a seat or some sort of cargo to be delivered it is a private operation, the responsibility is shared between myself and the person requiring my services. It is black and white. However, what is the consequence of that person calling me because my name is on a list of available 210 instructors at said FBO? I'm not sure where this falls under the notion of "holding out."

 

[FN FAL]

However, what is the consequence of that person calling me because my name is on a list of available 210 instructors at said FBO? I'm not sure where this falls under the notion of "holding out."

That's the problem. At the very least, the FBO could be accused of holding out because they use you as a CFI and they rent planes to the customer. They are providing both plane and pilot.

Lets look at a different scenario...

Some guy advertises renting and leasing of a 300 series Cessna. He meets all requirements for renting out the plane.

Your advertisement for pilot services is right next to this ad and you list among other things, your qualifications for flying, which include 500 PIC in 300 series Cessna's.

If a guy calls up the renter and purchases ten hours of block time in the 300 series Cessna and then calls you up and wants you to fly the rented plane all over the place, can any of these acts be construed as holding out to the public?

What if you and the guy are roommates? What if you and the guy are married? Do any of these behind the scenes "situations" change anything in regards to holding out?

 

[mcjohn]

Just get AOPA Commercial Pilot legal services for $52 a year and rest easy. I've heard really good things about their legal service program. Sounds like there is enough gray in the situation to do it without too much fear or guilt (especially if you have AOPA's lawyers on your side) I bet those guys would LOVE defending you against the FAA in a situation such as this. Also, if you pay into it you can just call and ask them instead of taking chances with all the pilots opinions on this forum. I have learned that info on this forum should be taken with a grain of salt ya know?

 

[FN FAL]

Just get AOPA Commercial Pilot legal services for $52 a year and rest easy.... I have learned that info on this forum should be taken with a grain of salt ya know?

You're contradicting yourself.

 

[av8rbama]

You're contradicting yourself.

Haha, too funny.

Yeah, I've got the AOPA legal services plan. I've had it ever since I first joined AOPA but thankfully have never needed it.

However, when you dig yourself into a hole involving gross neglegence of black-and-white regulations, even the best of lawyers have a tough time getting you out of it (except for Jackie Chiles "Of course a bra's not going to fit over a leotard" :laugh: ). You can't just buy a legal services plan and expect them to have your back no matter what you do.

Gotta quit thinking about this today, my wife has already told me to quit worrying about it... too many scenarios, my head is about to explode.

 

[FN FAL]

Haha, too funny.

Yeah, I've got the AOPA legal services plan. I've had it ever since I first joined AOPA but thankfully have never needed it.

However, when you dig yourself into a hole involving gross neglegence of black-and-white regulations, even the best of lawyers have a tough time getting you out of it (except for Jackie Chiles "Of course a bra's not going to fit over a leotard" :laugh: ). You can't just buy a legal services plan and expect them to have your back no matter what you do.

Gotta quit thinking about this today, my wife has already told me to quit worrying about it... too many scenarios, my head is about to explode.

Yea, it is kind of a dilemma. You need flight time to get up in the world, but yet you must stay on the up and up to keep your record un blemished.

I did a lot of flying with my own plane and a rented plane for my employer. They re-embursed me for the time on my plane and my employer paid the bill on the rental plane. The company I worked for built specialty machinery for the paper industry, so we did a lot of field service and sales trips. Since the flying was incidental to business, I was able to draw company pay while flying the aircraft. I was working there as a field service tech and machine assembler...so it was real convenient for them and me to be able to do this type of flying.

 

[mcjohn]

Good point, that was a little contradicting.

BTW, I keep meaning to put up a resume on those local job websites kind of hoping to do something part time that might allow me to fly a little for the job. Any advice on a niche I should look into FN FAL. My only sales experience is lawn and garden/plumbing at Sears. My only technical experience is audio engineering (which I'm not into anymore) and flying.

 

[av8rbama]

Yea, it is kind of a dilemma. You need flight time to get up in the world, but yet you must stay on the up and up to keep your record un blemished.

I did a lot of flying with my own plane and a rented plane for my employer. They re-embursed me for the time on my plane and my employer paid the bill on the rental plane. The company I worked for built specialty machinery for the paper industry, so we did a lot of field service and sales trips. Since the flying was incidental to business, I was able to draw company pay while flying the aircraft. I was working there as a field service tech and machine assembler...so it was real convenient for them and me to be able to do this type of flying.

I've been fortunate to find a job flying for an aerial surveyor. Lucked up on it b/c of my 2 degrees in civil engineering. I built XC time leading up to my commercial while doing research for my masters (we did GPS surveys of airports for a state-funded research project) while having the rental paid for as incidentals. Recently, I've decided the engineering part isn't for me and flying is what I was born to do but will stick with my current job b/c of the pay and I still get to fly.

My rep with the other FBO on the field, where we base our planes, is stellar. I've gotten several trips for private owners in a 206, 210, 182, and a Saratoga based at our FBO but it was always the owner or the regular pilot contacting me, never the FBO. I've done some ride-alongs with the FBO owner (a MEI) in several 400-series Cessnas they manage and was able to log it as PIC dual and he wants to get me a good bit of experience in those planes so I can eventually work for them and fly those trips... same with a King Air based at our FBO whose regular pilot is a MEI and worked with me to get my high-altitude endorsement. I don't consider myself as flying for free b/c these are usually single-pilot trips and the pilots are doing what they can to help me out. I'm really the only young guy around here with a decent amount of experience and many of the old-school guys have told me to keep my nose clean and stick around, some great things will eventually happen. My reputation is getting around our FBO and the last thing I want to do is ruin all of these opportunities because of some dumba$$ decision I made to fly some 134 1/2 stuff at the other FBO... Like I've said before, I've got all the 210 time I could ever want at my regular job so it's not like I'm gaining anything other than an hourly rate by being over there.

 

[avbug]

It is black and white.

Not nearly so, because only part of the issue has been covered. The part covered is mostly clear-cut...but have you considered insurance? Will insurance rent the aircraft to another, and let you fly it...or will you as the pilot need to be considered the person to whom the aircraft has been rented...and will insurance cover the intended operation...a commercial use of the aircraft or a corporate endevor? Better find out.

Whomever dispensed the advice to get the AOPA legal plan is on the right track, but only so far as to suggest counsel with an attorney. If you get into trouble, having an attorney is a good idea, but it still won't prevent you from paying a penalty if you're guilty, and it won't save your career.

TurboS7 noted that if it appears illegal, treat it as such...if there's any question at all with regard to the operation in question, avoid it. This is prudence.

I asked him who would be paying me to fly and he said "we will." Red flag again...

The crucial question there is who is paying the FBO. If the FBO is flying their own people or guests at no cost, then you shouldn't have any issues. If a customer is paying for you to carry persons or property from one point to another, and you are provided by the FBO, as is the aircraft, then you have a big problem.

The issue of holding out is irrelevant. You are permitted to advertise your services as a commercially certificated pilot all you like. The FBO can advertise your services. Holding out is legal.

You cannot hold out for an illegal operation, however, without A) attracting attention you don't want, and B) paying the piper when you do attract that attention.

If you're going to advertise your services as a professional, ensure that it's done in accordance with the regulation and without any question as to your intent or limitations.