The F/O's dilemma...

[328dude]

The old interview question of what are you going to do if the Captain decides to desend below DH with nothing in sight.

The best answer I ever heard out of someones mouth was "After keying the mike, yelling to Go-Around, just put the gear up, I guarentee he will pull back on the stick".

Amazing!!! LOL

 

[avbug]

While that's humorous to some degree, a copilot who sucked up the gear on me below DH without a call to do so and a positive rate would quickly be nursing a broken arm.

DH is decision height, not a hard deck. An aircraft may descend well below DH during a missed approach; or after passing DH. One must consider all the circumstances, but certainly during a negative rate of ascent (a descent), one should not pull the gear close to the ground. You're better off touching something with it down than up.

Follow proceedure. Call it. Call it. Do it.

 

[jsoceanlord]

everyone's pretty stressed in the current environment and more often than not there are some big ego's involved. usually capt's and FO's take themselves too seriously.

Nobody can argue against safety; if you want to argue that all planes should be painted purple for better visibility, I can't argue with that.

my boss owns a jet commode (commander) and I know he resents that it requires a FO, unlike a Citation.

 

[Ameriagle]

Skydivedriver,

What I have to offer might be a bit simplistic but it generally works for me. I approach and treat the aholes just like the pleasant and professional captains. I have come to the conclusion that a problem captain is that way....and in no way has anything to do with me. I do not take it personal.

As a new hire I can remember flying with one particular captain, a known problem captain, who had a habit of making the new folks feel very small about their performance. Letting him get into my head....and resenting him for just being there I could see the potential for a breakdown in communication that could be dangerous....at a critical time. At that point I just quit worrying about it. Its not worth compromising the safety of the operation. Just try to be professional.....despite the fact it may be unpleasant.

I actually feel sorry for the captains that insist on looking down their noses at the world. The best part of this occupation is the folks you get to share it with. I noticed that throughout the month this captain spent a lot of time alone on the overnights. I sure wanted nothing to do with him! It must be a miserable existance making everyone elses month hell!

 

[TurboS7]

CatIIIA full blown go around on a 737 or 727 and I know other aircraft the gear will touch the ground during the go. I agree with Avbug, I pitty the first officer that tries that on me, and the company would agree with me also, he wouldn't be around very long.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Below DH?

F/O: "minimums"
CPT: "gonna go look"
F/O :"minimums, MISSED APPROACH"
CPT: "runway in sight, landing"
Finish the operations already in progress, wait for the engine shut down checklist, complete that, reach over and push the "event" button on the CVR.
Wait for the CPT to ask "what's that about?" make sure the beacon is turned off and explain your position as it relates to "busting minimums". Refer to the CVR event and FDR data and being willing to have your chief pilot referee as to the correctness. He/She may be bent out of shape, you may not make any fans, but you will have set your limits. Control grabbing heroics are at best foolish near the ground, you better have a life or death reason to grab the controls from the PIC. The cockpit has to be one of the most potentially difficult workplace. Do not forget the chain of command the CPT. is your supervisor so all issues should start there, but the chain also goes further above them too.


now shhhh......I'm huntin' wabbits

 

[328dude]

I guarentee that if you do decide to push the little majic button then get managment involved, your committing career suicide.
I can't speak for other carriers, but we would get hung out to dry if we brought that to our CP.

Keep it in house and private. Take it out back if neccesary, but never involve the company or Feds.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

328,
This did happen to me, the sad part was he laughed at me, I readdressed thinking he thought I was joking. He laughed again. My chief pilot was very receptive and thanked me profusely for having the cohones, to step foreward
he had heard many 3rd hand stories but no one would fess up, fearing the "career suicide" issue. I have openly discussed the above event with senior Capt's whom have all agreed with my actions. Be advised, if your company doesn't want to hear this kind of serious operational deviation/flagrant disregard for FARs/safety issue,
I would think about finding another job with a responsable carrier.
I agree, this should be kept in house if at all possible, that was the original
tone of my post.
BUT DON"T EVER FORGET, YOU HAVE A MORAL RESPONSABILITY TO YOUR-SELF
TO REMAIN ALIVE.
If reg. violation is ok who decides which ones are ok and not ok?
S.O.P. ops specs, F.A.R.s are written in blood, to blindly disregard this fact is foolish.
P.S. I will have the opportunity to upgrade in the CRJ later this year!

 

[avbug]

PBR,

You are quite correct. I would agree with other captains on that issue; you did the right thing and handled it well. I would also hope that after the second minimums call if you determined that an unsafe condition existed, you would tell me in strong terms to go around. The case you described didn't involve the assumption of captain incapacitation, as the captain was wilfully responding to your calls. However, he was doing it in ignorance of your position and responsibility in the cockpit. Therefore, taking the controls would not have been appropriate; you handled the event well; it's a good model for proper handling of such a situation.

To change it a bit, if the captain were spotting the runway or diving for it or any other unsafe condition existed, then mitigation of the moment would be in order. Sucking up the gear would certainly be out of line, but applying takeoff power and calling for a go around might not, depending on the circumstances.

 

[enigma]

Again, all good posts, but nobody is helping me with the jerk captains. I have to admit that the jerks I flew with in cargo were far worse than the pax guys, but they still exist. I still don't feel comfortable calling in sick, as it leaves some other poor reserve guy to fly with him. I also don't see how I can contact pro-standards about a guy who is terribly anal, or just a jerk to work with. Any suggestions?

The way that I have dealt with jerks is to do my job exactly according to SOP and doing a lot og butt kissing. Seriously, I start out the day with a big smile, and then attempt to let the jerk know how much I look forward to being in the presence of a master. Sometimes, this does work. The other times, I just keep on trying and look forward to the end of the month.
Now though, they are kissing my behind.

regards