The END OF LEONIDAS is finally upon us

[TWA Dude]

Jeepers, Puffy, such unbridled hatred you harbor towards AWA.

But at least you have an unbiased view of the Nicolau Award. <snicker snicker>

 

[PuffDriver]

Jeepers, Puffy, such unbridled hatred you harbor towards AWA.

But at least you have an unbiased view of the Nicolau Award. <snicker snicker>

Nope, mostly just bored. You have to be to be on flightinfo.

And it's not hatred, just that am west never did anything for anyone, including the financing of the USAir merger, were granted almost immediate access to wide bodies they didn't have before, and are now going to be part of a worldwide global operation.

Sure, no windfall. <snicker snicker>

Many of us have a firm grasp on the NIC, and the true reason behind the theatrics since.

 

[Turtle21]

No, he's right. USAPA is the scum of the Earth.

The level of hatred and jealousy one generates, in a selfish dog eat dog world, is directly proportional to the level of their success.

For the slow reader... The more hating you do on USAPA the louder you proclaim their success.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Bottom line, USAPA trying to get rid of NIC at all costs
Leonidas trying to keep NIC at all costs
Reason: massive windfall for west at the expense of east pilots

Whoever fed you this garbage should be ashamed. The Nicolau list resulted in the vast majority of pilots keeping the same relative position between top and bottom as they had before the merger. No one outside USAPA has bought the windfall garbage and you shouldn't either.

 

[PuffDriver]

Whoever fed you this garbage should be ashamed. The Nicolau list resulted in the vast majority of pilots keeping the same relative position between top and bottom as they had before the merger. No one outside USAPA has bought the windfall garbage and you shouldn't either.

I am outside USAPA, and I brought up the "windfall garbage"

It was a windfall for the AWA pilots. Period. Otherwise, they would not be fighting so hard for it.

 

[SWA Bubba]

I am outside USAPA, and I brought up the "windfall garbage"

It was a windfall for the AWA pilots. Period. Otherwise, they would not be fighting so hard for it.

That's kind of a stupid one-sided comment. The east pilots are fighting equally as hard; are they fighting to protect their "windfall"? They must be, since that's how your stated "logic" seems to work. In fact, they fought so hard that they did something unheard of in the industry (so far)--they kicked out ALPA and started a new union, with the sole purpose of advancing THEIR particular idea of "fair" (DOH). That is USAPA's sole premise and reason for existence. And of course, this was AFTER an agreed-upon neutral third party had already ruled, and AFTER their initial round of appeals to ALPA and the courts had failed.

You say that you're outside of USAPA; I suppose I'll take you at your word about that. However, your "outside" views of this situation are in an incredibly miniscule minority. I'd bet that if you did a poll of all airline pilots, outside of USAir east and west, that 95 (or more) out of 100 would say that the Nic award should have been implemented years ago.

Bubba

 

[Turtle21]

That's kind of a stupid one-sided comment. The east pilots are fighting equally as hard; are they fighting to protect their "windfall"? They must be, since that's how your stated "logic" seems to work. In fact, they fought so hard that they did something unheard of in the industry (so far)--they kicked out ALPA and started a new union, with the sole purpose of advancing THEIR particular idea of "fair" (DOH). That is USAPA's sole premise and reason for existence. And of course, this was AFTER an agreed-upon neutral third party had already ruled, and AFTER their initial round of appeals to ALPA and the courts had failed.

You say that you're outside of USAPA; I suppose I'll take you at your word about that. However, your "outside" views of this situation are in an incredibly miniscule minority. I'd bet that if you did a poll of all airline pilots, outside of USAir east and west, that 95 (or more) out of 100 would say that the Nic award should have been implemented years ago.

Bubba

Oh, yeah the unknowable reference to the "certain" bandwagon group think approach that wins over multiple trips through the courts (even up to SCOTUS)....

Whaaa. :laugh:

 

[Metrojet]

That's kind of a stupid one-sided comment. The east pilots are fighting equally as hard; are they fighting to protect their "windfall"? They must be, since that's how your stated "logic" seems to work. In fact, they fought so hard that they did something unheard of in the industry (so far)--they kicked out ALPA and started a new union, with the sole purpose of advancing THEIR particular idea of "fair" (DOH). That is USAPA's sole premise and reason for existence. And of course, this was AFTER an agreed-upon neutral third party had already ruled, and AFTER their initial round of appeals to ALPA and the courts had failed.

You say that you're outside of USAPA; I suppose I'll take you at your word about that. However, your "outside" views of this situation are in an incredibly miniscule minority. I'd bet that if you did a poll of all airline pilots, outside of USAir east and west, that 95 (or more) out of 100 would say that the Nic award should have been implemented years ago.

Bubba

Wow -
This view coming from someone who really took care of their merger SLI - lets see how your Air Tran brothers feel about how they were integrated with the SW list?

C'mon Bubba - you missed the entire comparison of Puff- AWA pilots got so much more from the Nic than what they brought to the merged airlines.

The East guys are just trying to protect and maintain what they brought - nothing more - nothing less.

Please show me how it was a WINDFALL for any East Pilot and - and then you can tell me how much of a windfall the Air Tran Captains got ok at SW.

Metrojet

 

[SWA Bubba]

Oh, yeah the unknowable reference to the "certain" bandwagon group think approach that wins over multiple trips through the courts (even up to SCOTUS)....

Whaaa. :laugh:

Not sure what the hell you're talking about here.

Bubba

 

[Flybywire44]

Whoever fed you this garbage should be ashamed. The Nicolau list resulted in the vast majority of pilots keeping the same relative position between top and bottom as they had before the merger. No one outside USAPA has bought the windfall garbage and you shouldn't either.

I am outside the USAPA vs AOL conflict and I brought up the "windfall garbage" too.

A lot has changed since the Nicolai award was issued?it is outdated by age 65, the AA merger and its additional pilot group.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Wow -
This view coming from someone who really took care of their merger SLI - lets see how your Air Tran brothers feel about how they were integrated with the SW list?

C'mon Bubba - you missed the entire comparison of Puff- AWA pilots got so much more from the Nic than what they brought to the merged airlines.

The East guys are just trying to protect and maintain what they brought - nothing more - nothing less.

Please show me how it was a WINDFALL for any East Pilot and - and then you can tell me how much of a windfall the Air Tran Captains got ok at SW.

Metrojet

First of all, I was debunking Puff's logic that one side "obviously" had a windfall because they were fighting hard for their position. Do you guys really not see that?

And as far as the SWA-AirTran SLI, there's people on both sides who are unhappy with the outcome; they say that's the mark of a successful integration--that both sides are pissed. Whatever. At any rate, the bottom line is an average of 2.5 years loss of seniority to AirTran pilots' DOH. No fences, nothing. When the integration is complete at the end of 2014, any pilot can be a captain or hold a any domicile based on his global seniority. That sounded reasonably "fair" to me (although I have no idea how they arrived at 2.5 years). And in fact, other AirTran employee groups that actually went to arbitration got remarkably similar or slightly worse SLIs.

As far as the former AmWest guys "getting so much more" than they brought, well, that's certainly a matter of opinion or perspective. Puff was talking about the west's "immediate access to widebodies." Well, that's why the Nic had all the top positions given to east pilots--so they could keep their widebody seats. The rest was pretty close to straight relative. And, not to be an ass, but the windfall to east pilots is that they still have jobs that they wouldn't have if AmWest hadn't bought them out of bankruptcy. Testimony at the arbitration hearing indicated that USAir was weeks from liquidation. And make no mistake, it was America West's management that put together the financing to make the merger. Nobody else was going to save USAir. Actually, on that note, if I was a former AmWest guy, I'd squarely blame Doug Parker for this hateful mess.

The east's opening position in SLI talks was strict DOH, including furloughees. That means that unemployed USAir furloughees (furloughed due to years of chronic USAir mismanagement) would come back to a job and displace a working AmWest pilot onto the street. You remember them, right?--the pilots who worked for an airline that WASN'T getting ready to liquidate. How is THAT fair?

As far as AirTran pilots getting a "windfall," that's also a matter of perspective. So far, I've only flown with three FAT guys, and all of them are happy as crap and DO consider it a windfall. Obviously not all of them think this; you can see that from any number of posts on FI. However, I'd bet you any amount of money that on YOUR side of the argument, not one single former AmWest guy would consider a DOH SLI at USAir anything other than a complete ass-raping.

Anyway, that's the common perspective from outside USAir.

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

I am outside the USAPA vs AOL conflict and I brought up the "windfall garbage" too.

A lot has changed since the Nicolai award was issued?it is outdated by age 65, the AA merger and its additional pilot group.

True, a lot HAS changed since then, but that has no bearing on what should have happened back then. Parker has grown USAir on the east side primarily due to the fact that the USAPA stalemate prevents movement, and that the east guys are cheaper. They work for less. If you were management, it's a no-brainer to hire guys who work for less money. If the Nic had been implemented, there would be a new contract by now, and it would be one pilot group with one scale. And the east side wouldn't have all the growth it has had. Again, and regardless, NONE of this has any bearing on what happened and should have happened seven years ago.

Bubba

 

[Flybywire44]

The Nic conflict has certainly cost a is airways pilots a lot of money in missed pay raises. I'm sure most east pilots are happier with their seniority, but I bet they also would have enjoyed a $100k+ signing bonus.

 

[Turtle21]

First of all, I was debunking Puff's logic that one side "obviously" had a windfall because they were fighting hard for their position. Do you guys really not see that?

And as far as the SWA-AirTran SLI, there's people on both sides who are unhappy with the outcome; they say that's the mark of a successful integration--that both sides are pissed. Whatever. At any rate, the bottom line is an average of 2.5 years loss of seniority to AirTran pilots' DOH. No fences, nothing. When the integration is complete at the end of 2014, any pilot can be a captain or hold a any domicile based on his global seniority. That sounded reasonably "fair" to me (although I have no idea how they arrived at 2.5 years). And in fact, other AirTran employee groups that actually went to arbitration got remarkably similar or slightly worse SLIs.

As far as the former AmWest guys "getting so much more" than they brought, well, that's certainly a matter of opinion or perspective. Puff was talking about the west's "immediate access to widebodies." Well, that's why the Nic had all the top positions given to east pilots--so they could keep their widebody seats. The rest was pretty close to straight relative. And, not to be an ass, but the windfall to east pilots is that they still have jobs that they wouldn't have if AmWest hadn't bought them out of bankruptcy. Testimony at the arbitration hearing indicated that USAir was weeks from liquidation. And make no mistake, it was America West's management that put together the financing to make the merger. Nobody else was going to save USAir. Actually, on that note, if I was a former AmWest guy, I'd squarely blame Doug Parker for this hateful mess.

The east's opening position in SLI talks was strict DOH, including furloughees. That means that unemployed USAir furloughees (furloughed due to years of chronic USAir mismanagement) would come back to a job and displace a working AmWest pilot onto the street. You remember them, right?--the pilots who worked for an airline that WASN'T getting ready to liquidate. How is THAT fair?

As far as AirTran pilots getting a "windfall," that's also a matter of perspective. So far, I've only flown with three FAT guys, and all of them are happy as crap and DO consider it a windfall. Obviously not all of them think this; you can see that from any number of posts on FI. However, I'd bet you any amount of money that on YOUR side of the argument, not one single former AmWest guy would consider a DOH SLI at USAir anything other than a complete ass-raping.

Anyway, that's the common perspective from outside USAir.

Bubba

Yeah common perspective...

Your opinion is indeed like everyone else's, that we certainly agree about.

This is very interesting. Please tell us more. We have all day.

 

[Bringupthebird]

I am outside USAPA, and I brought up the "windfall garbage"

It was a windfall for the AWA pilots. Period. Otherwise, they would not be fighting so hard for it.

Obviously you've decided to reject reason and thinking for yourself and just join the crewroom chorus. Just run the numbers. If you were an active pilot at the PID, you would have upgraded/advanced at practically the same rate you have by ripping off your fellow US pilots, and you would have had your integrity intact AND you would have negotiated a far superior MOU from a much better starting point.

Or you could just bob your head with the rest of the guys that wanted to stick it to ALPA and the west, but at a tremendous cost personally and professionally.

 

[Bringupthebird]

The Nic conflict has certainly cost a is airways pilots a lot of money in missed pay raises. I'm sure most east pilots are happier with their seniority, but I bet they also would have enjoyed a $100k+ signing bonus.

How about costing them 20 more years of a miserable work environment that they chose to create by their actions? You have no idea of the consequences of your actions, but they will become readily apparent once crews are mixed.

20 years of explaining why you felt you had to do what you did, to folks who can see right through you and couldn't care less for your feeble excuses, that's what the east pilots have to look forward to.

The west pilots have a history of standing up for what is right and refusing to take the east's abuse and for that they will have a reputation they can be proud of. The west will be the folks with the proven inteGRITy to unify and lead the pilots going forward. The east never stood up to management, they let childish games run amok and result in an injunction. The west pilots stood up to a phony facade of a union that got such a charge out of petty squabbles against it's dues paying members that it forgot to serve the rest of them with any tangible benefits. I guess running a real union was something the immature east were ill-prepared to do. The west will join with APA and work to make the pie-in-the-sky promises of the MOU projections actually show up in the paychecks of the pilots.

The east will drift away as a dying car alarm on a 77 Pinto, alot of noise for nothing. Call the wrecker.

 

[Old School 737]

I am outside USAPA, and I brought up the "windfall garbage"

It was a windfall for the AWA pilots. Period. Otherwise, they would not be fighting so hard for it.

Your an idiot .. So if you put $ 100 down on black and it came up red you would hire a lawyer .. Wtf .. When you go to binding arbitration you get what you get .you can be pissed at the outcome but that's about it .. It's over ...

 

[General Lee]

I am outside USAPA, and I brought up the "windfall garbage"

It was a windfall for the AWA pilots. Period. Otherwise, they would not be fighting so hard for it.

Not according to the arbitrator each side agreed upon prior to the process. Maybe you need to read Nic's explanation, he probably explained the award fairly well.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[SWA Bubba]

Yeah common perspective...

Your opinion is indeed like everyone else's, that we certainly agree about.

This is very interesting. Please tell us more. We have all day.

Nah... I'll leave you guys to fight over it. I only said something because of Puff's absurd attempt at logic, and then responding to a few responses directed at me. Other than general concern about the incredibly dangerous precedent overturning an agreed-upon binding arbitration award would set, I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't even know any guys at USAir, east OR west. (Other than DCA, that is--he and I are tight! )

Carry on....

Bubba

 

[Metrojet]

Nah... I'll leave you guys to fight over it. I only said something because of Puff's absurd attempt at logic, and then responding to a few responses directed at me. Other than general concern about the incredibly dangerous precedent overturning an agreed-upon binding arbitration award would set, I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't even know any guys at USAir, east OR west. (Other than DCA, that is--he and I are tight! )

Carry on....

Bubba

Ok - I was starting to respect you there until you said you and DCA are TIGHT!
??

Metrojet