The end of Comair

[glasspilot1]

It is indeed a very sad day that the airline I enjoyed 16 years and 4 months. Comair will be shut down exactly 8 years after My retirement...................

Thank you.

Jim Smith
Comair Retired

Jim,

I had to do some math, so you were hired 24+ years ago? I was hired in mid 1985, was there 2 1/2 years. You must know M. McClure and P. Rodgers, they were just a few months senior to me. They decided to make Comair a career, hope they can move on successfully.

Andy Brothers
Wheeler (don't ask), Comair, TWA, AA retired

 

[glasspilot1]

Crazy to think Delta spent 1.8 Billion to buy Comair only 12 years ago. And now its gonna shut down. Amazing!!

When I was there in the mid '80's Delta already owned 20% of Comair, but Comair could still do what they wanted. They were growing like mad. Once I heard Delta bought the rest of them out I thought: "That's the beginning of the end of them".

 

[pilotyip]

Ahhh, you're management. That explains a lot.

But always remember that without management there are no airline jobs. And for those who have all the answers, it is your duty to come into management and make it better. In the end it is all about profit, and the consumer of airline tickets will determine weather an airline makes a profit and succeeds or fails to make an adequate profit and fails.

 

[JonnyKnoxville]

I think you forgot the Seibs left Comair after the DAL buyout. He wasn't there for the 2 years before the strike, he had oversight of DL Connection. That's why he was sent in at the end to close the deal. As I said, the final day before the strike, Siebs had a blank check to close the deal. The union negotiators never came to the table. They were dragged out of their room by the arbitrator, was there for 15 minutes and left. There was nothing achieved after 89 days that couldn't have been agreed upon the day before. Comair came a lot closer to ending it's existance the first time that summer, and only when it became apparent they were serious was the contract ratified.

All this is ancient history, but it is what began what is happening now.

You are missing the point. You clearly are not upper management because you can not see the forest for the trees. I know your right in the fact that the Comair pilots really ruffled feathers with the strike. But you do not kill a multi-billion dollar investment because someone's ego gets hurt. If you really think that is the case, Delta must really lack the ability to follow through with their plans because it took over a decade to act on their emotional decision.

Everything the Comair pilots gained during the strike was taken away in bankruptcy. At that point, they were as competitive as any other regional. The reason Delta killed Comair is because they needed someone to take the hit on the RJ reduction. 150 RJs must come out of the DCI system because of ECONOMICS of those airplanes and every other DCI carrier except Comair has their flying contractually protected. Therefore, it was an easy choice for Delta to make.

Pinnacle is next in taking a huge hit, because Delta is not done getting rid of RJs and Pinnacle is in bankruptcy and able to void contracts. Pinnacle will see this reduction as a simple business decision by Delta. This decision made by Delta will not be an emotional one because the mechanics or the gate agents or the flight attendants or the pilots are not liked by Delta management as you may think.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

None of you are thinking longterm like management. 1.8 billion (which they get to write off) is peanuts. The resetting of mainline wages, workrules and retirements due to the shift in flying to the regionals during that period was covered in less than 2 years. There is a small need for the regionals, but imho they were built up with one thing in mind. Resetting the profession. Now that all of the majors have been "reset" you are seeing the dismantling of the regionals back to their natural state.

Crazy to think Delta spent 1.8 Billion to buy Comair only 12 years ago. And now its gonna shut down. Amazing!!

 

[WSurf]

None of you are thinking longterm like management. 1.8 billion (which they get to write off) is peanuts. The resetting of mainline wages, workrules and retirements due to the shift in flying to the regionals during that period was covered in less than 2 years. There is a small need for the regionals, but imho they were built up with one thing in mind. Resetting the profession. Now that all of the majors have been "reset" you are seeing the dismantling of the regionals back to their natural state.

I agree! What happened is that you had RJ Captain's making 100k a year flying 50 Seaters and Mainline making 160k flying 200 seaters.
You right in the fact the Regional pay started going up in the late 90's and the Mainline Pay dropped a ton. Now its more economical to go back to more mainline flying and less Regional.
Gonna be a interesting next few years. Time for everyone in the regionals to get the Logbooks up to date.

 

[Bugsmasher Plus]

You are missing the point. You clearly are not upper management because you can not see the forest for the trees. I know your right in the fact that the Comair pilots really ruffled feathers with the strike. But you do not kill a multi-billion dollar investment because someone's ego gets hurt. If you really think that is the case, Delta must really lack the ability to follow through with their plans because it took over a decade to act on their emotional decision.

Everything the Comair pilots gained during the strike was taken away in bankruptcy. At that point, they were as competitive as any other regional. The reason Delta killed Comair is because they needed someone to take the hit on the RJ reduction. 150 RJs must come out of the DCI system because of ECONOMICS of those airplanes and every other DCI carrier except Comair has their flying contractually protected. Therefore, it was an easy choice for Delta to make.

Pinnacle is next in taking a huge hit, because Delta is not done getting rid of RJs and Pinnacle is in bankruptcy and able to void contracts. Pinnacle will see this reduction as a simple business decision by Delta. This decision made by Delta will not be an emotional one because the mechanics or the gate agents or the flight attendants or the pilots are not liked by Delta management as you may think.

I wasn't in upper management but was high enough in the food chain to know how much misinformation the MEC was feeding the pilots.

In October of 2003, Delta came to Comair first with the opportunity to fly more 70 seat aircraft and the company asked the pilots to open up the contract. The union told Comair to pound sand.

Delta gave you guys the opportunity to be competitive FIRST. This was indeed a union issue. Had the contract been reopened in 2003, the 50 seat issue would not have been there during the following years. Comair would have been competitive with the rest of the regionals and there is a good chance that it would have at least been a viable asset that could have been sold as ASA, Compass and Mesaba were.

Instead, they had the 50 seaters and a union nobody wanted any part of. In the end it was indeed the cost structure, but the foundation had crumbled due to the actions of JC and Corey.

 

[Cpt Oveur]

Doesn't Comair only operate 16 CRJ 200s anymore? A drop in the bucket as to who's loosing them. Pinnacle, Expressjet, and Skywest, along with Chautauqua will loose them. My guess is that as Pinnacle and Expressjet operate the largest quantity, they have the most to loose...

 

[Flyer1015]

Doesn't Comair only operate 16 CRJ 200s anymore? A drop in the bucket as to who's loosing them. Pinnacle, Expressjet, and Skywest, along with Chautauqua will loose them. My guess is that as Pinnacle and Expressjet operate the largest quantity, they have the most to loose...

A girlfriend can be loose, but airplanes you lose. Hope that clarifies it!

 

[Cpt Oveur]

I think I lost my mind

 

[CFI2766]

A girlfriend can be loose, but airplanes you lose. Hope that clarifies it!

I'm pretty sure he is making fun of you.

 

[Freebrd]

using "loose" improperly on fltinfo is good

 

[doh]

I wasn't in upper management but was high enough in the food chain to know how much misinformation the MEC was feeding the pilots.

In October of 2003, Delta came to Comair first with the opportunity to fly more 70 seat aircraft and the company asked the pilots to open up the contract. The union told Comair to pound sand.

Delta gave you guys the opportunity to be competitive FIRST. This was indeed a union issue. Had the contract been reopened in 2003, the 50 seat issue would not have been there during the following years. Comair would have been competitive with the rest of the regionals and there is a good chance that it would have at least been a viable asset that could have been sold as ASA, Compass and Mesaba were.

Instead, they had the 50 seaters and a union nobody wanted any part of. In the end it was indeed the cost structure, but the foundation had crumbled due to the actions of JC and Corey.

We're you high enough up the food chain to see the constant abuse? No...wait...you were high enough up the food chain to ignore the constant abuse we put up with. You made a comment about the "culture". I notice you had no response when I pointed out the verbal abuse I got from Mikey P. Some "cult"ure.uke:

 

[imacdog]

welcome to club, Eastern, Braniff I, TransAmerican, Zantop, Pam Am, Drummond Island Air, GM Corp, USSteel, the list goes on. All airline jobs are temporary, well not exactly true I do know 2 guys who had complete careers with no lay offs or pay cuts.

Must be all part of the 2012 hiring boom, right YIPster?

 

[imacdog]

Comair could easily have sustained profitability within the Delta family and have continued to have been the model for all others but was shackled by the greed of the union.

Yeah, if only all those stupid pilots would work for food stamp wages and not just some of them, imagine what we could accomplish! Do you realize how much of a tool you are showing yourself to be?

 

[Nevets]

I wasn't in upper management but was high enough in the food chain to know how much misinformation the MEC was feeding the pilots.

In October of 2003, Delta came to Comair first with the opportunity to fly more 70 seat aircraft and the company asked the pilots to open up the contract. The union told Comair to pound sand.

Delta gave you guys the opportunity to be competitive FIRST. This was indeed a union issue. Had the contract been reopened in 2003, the 50 seat issue would not have been there during the following years. Comair would have been competitive with the rest of the regionals and there is a good chance that it would have at least been a viable asset that could have been sold as ASA, Compass and Mesaba were.

Instead, they had the 50 seaters and a union nobody wanted any part of. In the end it was indeed the cost structure, but the foundation had crumbled due to the actions of JC and Corey.

Did management open up their contracts to become competitive FIRST and lead by example? This was indeed a management leadership issue.

 

[SiuDude]

In happier news, GoJet should be hiring street captains soon, really soon. uke:uke:uke:uke:uke:uke:

 

[pilotyip]

Must be all part of the 2012 hiring boom, right YIPster?

you got it,

 

[Max Q]

Perhaps if airline management, since the beginning of time, didn't foster a culture of abuse towards its employees, we wouldn't need contracts or unions.

 

[livin'thesim]

It would be equally good if pilot unions did not eat their young, either.

 

[brokedash]

It would be equally good if pilot unions did not eat their young, either.

There is so much truth to this.

 

[Bugsmasher Plus]

We're you high enough up the food chain to see the constant abuse? No...wait...you were high enough up the food chain to ignore the constant abuse we put up with. You made a comment about the "culture". I notice you had no response when I pointed out the verbal abuse I got from Mikey P. Some "cult"ure.uke:

I ignored it because he wasn't DO before the strike as you said he was, CB was. MP didn't become DO until well after the strike at the beginning of 2002. Until this post I didn't see a reason to correct you.

Your MEC used delay tactics to force the strike. Not showing up for negotiations, 3 hour caucus to clarify a 5 word sentence etc. It's why the negotiating team went from 3 to 2 on the company side. The union lied to the rank and file. It could have been done quickly. Your MEC chose otherwise. The fact is that 70 seat airplanes were on the table and your MEC chose not to chase them in 2003 is proof of that. And for the record, I am specific on JC and Cory, not the rank and file pilots which I think were the greatest group of pilots that I've ever worked with. Period.

 

[Bugsmasher Plus]

Yeah, if only all those stupid pilots would work for food stamp wages and not just some of them, imagine what we could accomplish! Do you realize how much of a tool you are showing yourself to be?

I never said or implied that.

JC and Cory could have negotiated to industry standards at that time like all the others did and the strike wouldn't have happened.

The hubs would have remained protected and Comair would have continued to grow at the incredible pace it was growing. We were on the leading edge of the 70 seat aircraft, why would you want to stop that kind of growth?

Maybe JC and Cory can answer that. It never made any sense to me.

 

[imacdog]

Yeah those whole extra few bucks an hour (raising the bar to barely liveable wages from dirt poor) really was reaching for the moon, wasn't it? People flying multi-million dollar equipment making 35K, and that's too much, what a joke.

 

[eightdriver]

Agree on the Comair part. This is BS treatment by Delta.

Per the Obama comment, you clearly are a F*&^Tard.[/QUOTE]



First - as I mentioned earlier, sincere condolences to the Comair folks out there. Terrible situation and I hope you find better jobs soon.

Profit - Really? You're a big talker who can't support your statement. Where are your facts? Can you support your statement? It's easy to talk big and sound real cool - but you need to support it with facts or you sound like another tool...

You want some facts? How about these facts:

1. Worst economy in the US since the great Depression - for the last 3.5 years with zero improvement
2. 8.2% official unemployment rate but a real unemployment rate exceeding 18% including those chronically unemployed who have dropped out and those who are under-employed (part-time jobs)
3. 50+% of recent college grads unemployed
4. By November 2012, the unemployment rate for Black people could easily be close to 21-22% according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
5. $5 trillion in NEW debt since Obama entered office
6. The National Debt has continued to increase an average of $3.90 billion per day since September 28, 2007.
7. $800 Billion in stimulus with no improvement in the unemployment rate - it is only growing
8. The average Canadian is now wealthier than the average American
9. Americans on average have lost 45% of their wealth in the last 3.5 years
10. Foreclosures continue to happen at the highest rate in history
11. Gas prices are 81% higher in the Obama Administration than they were in the Clinton Administration
12. 49.5% of Americans paid no federal income tax in 2009 - that's 151.7 million people
13. Obamacare will add 26 new taxes for large and small businesses
14. Although oil drilling is stastically up in the US since Obama entered office, 98% of that new drilling happens on private land (i.e., in North Dakota) where the Federal Government has no say in the matter. Obama has a failed energy policy
15. The Keystone pipeline project would have created 25,000 US jobs before Obama stopped it. Now the Chinese have agreed to buy a huge Canadian oil company (this week) - China will get more oil/gas while US fuel prices increase
16. Increasing taxes for the top 1% like Obama wants, will provide enough tax money to fund the US government for a total of 7 days


Should I continue? Had Obama focused hard on the economy in 2008-9 as the top priority, perhaps things would be different. If Obama had agreed with and implemented the Simpson-Bowles Plan (since he actually commissioned the study) instead of ignoring the recommendations, perhaps things would be different. If Obama were a CEO, he would have been fired for non-performance. But he couldn't become a CEO because he has ZERO business experience and he does not understand economics. So, can we really afford 4 more years with Obama? How much more will our debt grow in the next 4 years? The economy MUST be the top priority and Obama clearly does not understand that point...

So, Profit and 727C47, where are your facts that Obama has grown and improved our economy after 3.5 years??? Show me the facts. I'm waiting....

This picture says it all:

FOX news....... Your the f@#$ing idiot.... Get a clue

 

[enuffalready]

FOX news....... Your the f@#$ing idiot.... Get a clue

Ah yes...YOUR the idiot....... Just doesn't get better than that

 

[nightfr8er]

Unbelievable? BS.

I was sitting about 10 feet from Cory when he gave his famous "on behalf of all the aviation professionals at Comair" speech at the company meeting when Seibs put him back in his place. I, like most of the group in the room was insulted as he sure as hell wasn't speaking for me.

Now THAT was unbelievable.

They had an agenda, and that agenda was to squeeze every penny out of a very well run airline and to establish a new pay scale within the regional industry. They failed to do that, the strike didn't have to happen and the company was never the same. Comair today should be stronger than any regional out there. Comair was the best managed airline in those years and had a company culture second to none.

I meant exactly what I said and I know I'm not the only one that feels the way I do.

Lorenzo will forever be identified with Eastern and JC and Cory should forever be identified as responsible for the demise of Comair.

But to say that the downfall of the company is on the shoulders of JC and Cory is BS! They didn't put the group on strike - over 99 % voted for it and walked out together. And for others to suggest that the pilots and the union brought down the company when management wanted to "adjust the cost structure to be competitive" is even more BS!

When Fred Buttrell came in in '04 and said "If you take a 2 year pay freeze, then every other pilot group's pay rates will catch up with yours, and I can then secure financing for another 36 airplanes in 36 months, our costs will then be competitive", and then Delta turns around and files bankruptcy 6 months later - that had nothing to do with the pilots not playing ball to help the company. They then threw out our contract, inmposed 10% to 22% pay cuts on the pilots, depending on seat, and gave us a contract with 1% raises for the next 4 or 5 years. And the STILL came to the pilots every two years or so afterwards, saying "You need to take pay cuts, our costs aren't competitive." That is poor management from ATL - NOT the fault of the pilots.

Then DL keeps reducing the fee for departure, because Comair was the only remaining Connection Carrier without a FRP contract and couldn't do anything about it, and then they begin furloughing, cutting off the cheapest labor, and artificially raising the $/hr cost structure, because then all the captains are the most senior, and the FO's are the most senior, they continued to make their own cost structure problem worse. They did it to themselves, over and over again.

So don't you uninformed haters out there blame the downfall of the company on the pilots that refused to keep doing it for cheaper. Blame it on ALPA for not making the Connectioin Carrier task force, or whatever the he!! they called it sooner, to prevent the whipsawing that took place of one group over another. Blame it on the ATL suits that fed fees to other companies that also fed their competition (like when Republic gave USAir $120 million to keep operating) instead of keeping all of the money in house. Blame it on other pilot groups for not getting better pay rates on continuing to advance the profession - but there's only so much that other groups can do too.

The long and short of it is that DL management had it in for Comair ever since the strike. During the deposition phase for the RJDC lawsuit, I was told that they got a DL manager under oath to state for the record that Gerry Grinstein, then CEO of Delta, deliberately made decisions to punish Comair for that, as long as he was the CEO.

 

[doh]

I ignored it because he wasn't DO before the strike as you said he was, CB was. MP didn't become DO until well after the strike at the beginning of 2002. Until this post I didn't see a reason to correct you.

Your MEC used delay tactics to force the strike. Not showing up for negotiations, 3 hour caucus to clarify a 5 word sentence etc. It's why the negotiating team went from 3 to 2 on the company side. The union lied to the rank and file. It could have been done quickly. Your MEC chose otherwise. The fact is that 70 seat airplanes were on the table and your MEC chose not to chase them in 2003 is proof of that. And for the record, I am specific on JC and Cory, not the rank and file pilots which I think were the greatest group of pilots that I've ever worked with. Period.

You're right, he had some other management position at the time. But what he said to me in the van as a total stranger still stands. And that attitude was pervasive. Remember the MCO ground manager. He had dark hair and a mustache. I don't remember his name because he refused to talk to me. My first day in MCO I walked up to him to introduce myself. He would not even say "hi". He turned his back on me and walked away. You get one chance to make an impression and that was the impression management chose to make as individuals over and over.

 

[ms6073]

Perhaps if airline management, since the beginning of time, didn't foster a culture of abuse towards its employees, we wouldn't need contracts or unions.

Now come on, thats just plain crazy talk. :nuts:

 

[pilotyip]

Now come on, thats just plain crazy talk. :nuts:

Again how come all the guys with all the answers on how to fix management, don't come over to the dark side and bring in the light?

CEO's are not intentionally running airlines into the ground. They would very much like to succeed. For lack of other reason it would make their resume look great, they would be doing something no other CEO had ever done. Top management includes many besides the CEO, the CEO sets direction as requested by the board. The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity. There is little they can do inside their structure. Other high paid top management personnel, in Operations, Maintenance. Marketing, Legal, Finance, etc. have unique skills in dealing with large organizations. This makes them marketable when shopping for a job, unlike pilots whose skills are nearly universal. Now I will agree that CEO leadership in many cases leaves much to be desired. An issue of ATW in 2002 had an article about “Airline Management a dying breed”, the article basically said no one wants to do it.

The pressure to maintain profit in the face of a consumer who changes flights for $1 in difference cost. There must be profit for without profit a company has no access to capital; without capital there is no growth, no more jobs. Profitable companies, sell stock to raise equity, a preferred method of raising money as opposed to borrowing. Profit can be used to pay dividends, which may raise the price of the stock, giving the company even more capital.

Without profit the only source of operating revenue is debt, and we know what that does eventually.