The "DEGREE"

[Hugh Jorgan]

No one has made that statement. The statement has been, why limit yourself and make yourself less competitive?

If the degree makes you so competitive, why were the guys I listed hired in front of those with degrees? Could it be skills, flight time, and lots of 121 PIC TJ experience, great personalities, and 10 years of air carrier experience by the time they were in their late 20's and early 30's

It's really hard for me to believe YIPs twisted logic he writes of is what he truly believes. He keeps preaching the EXCEPTION TO THE RULE. Jesus, we all know there are exceptions to every general rule. The vast majority of poor schlepps who heed YIP's advice would be in a soup line. How about showing us the big "progressive" hiring numbers from SWA this year. I'd be willing to bet a week's per diem that the number of non-degree holders hired there are somewhere of a percentage that my dad could count on one hand (and he's missing a couple of digits).

 

[LJDRVR]

I know pilots who have been hired at UAL, NWA, JB, SWA, AirTran, Spirit, Netjets, and a couple corporations without degrees.

Yip,

I see maybe 3 employers in your list that are good career jobs. While I also know of people who have made it sans degree, allow me to explain my position: In today's job environment, fully qualified people lacking the degree are NOT getting called for the interview. I've read your post concerning the viability of building flight time by entering the marketplace immediately in lieu of going to college. Your argument most certainly has some merit IF the individual is just happy flying for a living. If that person doesn't mind a lifetime on the pager, or settling for less than their degreed peers are earning, then they should follow your advice. As somebody who has been succesful in aviation, I fully agree with you that the degree is nothing but a piece of paper. I can hold my own against any "college boy" in a wide variety of environments.

Here's the catch: If an otherwise qualified individual wants to work for a certain company more than anything in the world, chances are that person will not get the call to interview. Not enough PIC time? no, got that. Total time? O.K. there too. well rounded indivual? Oh yeah. Type rating? Check. So, what's missing? Maybe it's not the degree, but there is way too much at stake here for me not to complete it. So, I continue to hack away at my classes, and I'll let you know what happens when I'm finished.

To answer the original posters question, depending on your circumstances, you really should get the degree. PM me if you want it from the horse's mouth. (Yip's a smart guy, but he has a degree or two. I have first person knowledge of the hiring situation right now.)

 

[LJDRVR]

If the degree makes you so competitive, why were the guys I listed hired in front of those with degrees?

BECAUSE THEY DID WELL AT THE INTERVIEW

The interview is no big deal. The problem is that without the degree, nobody is getting invited to interview. I'm not the least bit concerned about what happens once I'm on property, there's no doubt that I'll be that 2%. The problem is my phone's not ringing.

 

[pilotyip]

Twisted logic

Most people are being hired with 4 yr degrees because most people have degrees. I think even my place in the last year; we had more pilots with a Masters than pilots without a degree. I tell you it is hard to find a pilot candidate without a degree. Now here is the twisted logic, if 95% of the pilots applying have degrees and they fill 94% of the positions open it would appear that the college degree is the gold seal of airline hiring. However conversely if 5% of the pilots applying do not have a 4-yr degree but fill 6% of the positions at an airline, where is the advantage in hiring? BTW, the Kit says 33% of the regional and national hires do not have 4-year degrees.

 

[blzr]

I know alot of guys with masters phd,s you name it but they are the most stupid muthaf()ckers with absolutely no idea how to get by on a day to day basis.QUOTE]

Your expert management teams at Airways, UAL, Delta, AA, Northworst all are pointy headed elietists with Masters degrees, PHD's, graduated high potentate of their ivy league class and really don't know $hit about life.

The degree is important, but it doesn't necessarily make you smarter than the next guy.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Most people are being hired with 4 yr degrees because most people have degrees.

That's like saying that most people are being hired with ATPs because most people have ATPs or most people who are being interviewed at SWA have 737 type ratings because most people who want to work at SWA have types. The type isn't required to interview there, but figure your odds of getting the interview without one. Weak, weak, weak logic.

 

[TheDogsBollocks]

Most people are being hired with 4 yr degrees because most people have degrees. I think even my place in the last year; we had more pilots with a Masters than pilots without a degree. I tell you it is hard to find a pilot candidate without a degree. Now here is the twisted logic, if 95% of the pilots applying have degrees and they fill 94% of the positions open it would appear that the college degree is the gold seal of airline hiring. However conversely if 5% of the pilots applying do not have a 4-yr degree but fill 6% of the positions at an airline, where is the advantage in hiring? BTW, the Kit says 33% of the regional and national hires do not have 4-year degrees.

I'll be devils advocate, all you degree holders out there, let me put the following to you: I suspect that the main motivator for a degree while pursuing the aviation profession is simply the fact everybody else has one-NOT because it has relevance to the profession it is applied to!

It is a shame that our airlines can't think "outside of the box" (a most over used cliche) and find a better measure to determine who gets the interview, come another ten years we'll need a f**king PHD just to get the interview.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

I suspect that the main motivator for a degree while pursuing the aviation profession is simply the fact everybody else has one-NOT because it has relevance to the profession it is applied to!

I bet nobody has to tell him to breathe.

 

[TheDogsBollocks]

I bet nobody has to tell him to breathe.

Apparently not!

 

[Swerpipe]

Got it because I was young and I needed the money

I suspect that the main motivator for a degree while pursuing the aviation profession is simply the fact everybody else has one-NOT because it has relevance to the profession it is applied to!

Well DOGS,

Most pilots get their degrees BEFORE they start flying. There is no way that I would have gotten my engineering degree after I started flying. The engineeering degree was needed so that I could pay for this extremely expensive profession. About 60K on the degree plus 100K in flying so far... Having or not having a degree in my mind means nothing until I talked to the person.
I would hire a pilot if he is trainable, disciplined, friendly, have a great personality, a skillful pilot, provide good customer service, etc... If having a degree helped you to have those attractive qualities great, if you don't have them in spite of your degree then it didn't matter. I would not limit the available pilot pool by only considering folks with degrees...

 

[kilroy]

Perhaps I got a little carried away in my response to educated idiots. All I'm saying is it is a shame when alot of very qualified pilots get passed over for a job that is offered to a pilot with a fraction of his knowledge and experience. I think having an degree is great and it does show a perspective candidates ability to complete what he's started and that he his capable of furthering his education. But while he/she is in college other candidates are out there learning lifes most challenging classes LIFE ON THE LINE...
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[ILStoMinimums]

Perhaps I got a little carried away in my response to educated idiots. All I'm saying is it is a shame when alot of very qualified pilots get passed over for a job that is offered to a pilot with a fraction of his knowledge and experience. I think having an degree is great and it does show a perspective candidates ability to complete what he's started and that he his capable of furthering his education. But while he/she is in college other candidates are out there learning lifes most challenging classes LIFE ON THE LINE...


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Getting a degree, while already flying, is tuff-stuff.....I've got another 18-19 classes to go to finish. Feels like its a never ending hill at times........

 

[lymanm]

Let me suggest that perhaps the process of getting a degree is FUN?

The point of college is NOT to hone your flying skills. It's to hone life skills, if you don't mind the cliché. Granted, the academic side of the college experience may not be for everyone, but consider the other component of the experience. I'm in my senior year at a big int'l university, and the friends I've made alone have made the process worthwhile. This is in addition to other extra curricular stuff you can get involved with (sports, student government, etc etc) and of course, the party life, which one's ability to enjoy has an expiration date (I'm getting there now, I think...toooooooo much beer in the last 3.5 years!)

I resent those who say those who have gone to college don't have "life experience". Working and living from paycheck to paycheck (which I have also done) is not any different between working on papers/exams. You need to accomplish something in order to survive, thus requiring the same ability to muster mental tenacity. Finally, the vast vast majority of kids work during the summer, so the job part of "life experience" is also accomplished. Therefore, I'd argue that college grads have just as much "life experience", with perhaps even a bit more variation, compared to non college grads.

And for the record, I can afford to eat much better during the summer when I am a CFI than when I'm at school!

 

[ILStoMinimums]

Let me suggest that perhaps the process of getting a degree is FUN?

The point of college is NOT to hone your flying skills. It's to hone life skills, if you don't mind the cliché. Granted, the academic side of the college experience may not be for everyone, but consider the other component of the experience. I'm in my senior year at a big int'l university, and the friends I've made alone have made the process worthwhile. This is in addition to other extra curricular stuff you can get involved with (sports, student government, etc etc) and of course, the party life, which one's ability to enjoy has an expiration date (I'm getting there now, I think...toooooooo much beer in the last 3.5 years!)

I resent those who say those who have gone to college don't have "life experience". Working and living from paycheck to paycheck (which I have also done) is not any different between working on papers/exams. You need to accomplish something in order to survive, thus requiring the same ability to muster mental tenacity. Finally, the vast vast majority of kids work during the summer, so the job part of "life experience" is also accomplished. Therefore, I'd argue that college grads have just as much "life experience", with perhaps even a bit more variation, compared to non college grads.

And for the record, I can afford to eat much better during the summer when I am a CFI than when I'm at school!

Well opinions may vary, but I am having a hard time to believe getting a degree is fun - sorry just not that. Its just essential.....

 

[inline]

Well, here goes my first post. Please be gentle, It's my first time, LOL.

Anyhoo, I isa wonderin how potant da for yera degree is ta gettin hyed

If you have extensive heavy jet/EFIS, yada yada yada time, will that mean more than a four year degree with UPS and FEDEX I am speaking of. Says they both prefer it but not required. In the question and answer section on the FedEX site is asks that very question but is anyone getting interviewed or hired without it? Does knowing someone on the inside help in this case as well? I can't seem to get a straight answer.

Danka all yous bery much.

You want to fly at FedEx or UPS? After you get your degree, fly for the USAF, Navy or Marines. These pilots get hired first.

 

[TheDogsBollocks]

Well DOGS,

Most pilots get their degrees BEFORE they start flying. There is no way that I would have gotten my engineering degree after I started flying. The engineeering degree was needed so that I could pay for this extremely expensive profession. About 60K on the degree plus 100K in flying so far... Having or not having a degree in my mind means nothing until I talked to the person.
I would hire a pilot if he is trainable, disciplined, friendly, have a great personality, a skillful pilot, provide good customer service, etc... If having a degree helped you to have those attractive qualities great, if you don't have them in spite of your degree then it didn't matter. I would not limit the available pilot pool by only considering folks with degrees...

First of all, my compliments to you on your engineering degree a worthy attainment indeed. You are quite correct that most pilots acquire their degree prior to flight training but I did find the latter part of your response most insightful.

I have agree with everything you stated, it is a shame that a degree is required just to interview with an airline. Using the degree as a litmus test regretfully denies airlines of many qualified and suitable candidates-and it is their loss.

Not so long ago an ATP and a high school diploma was good enough.

Now it is an ATP and a bachelors degree.

In the future it will be an ATP and a masters.

Then an ATP and a Phd, where will this end?

With this "academic arms race" there has to be a better measure in place to truly determine who will be the best candidate for the job.

 

[Mugs]

Why you try to justify not having a degree in this line of work is beyond me. Having a degree, if nothing else, gives one a platform from which other ventures outside of aviation can be pursued in time. These days, I have a great deal of respect for those that have walked away from this profession (if it can still be called that) and been successful in other avenues of life. Some have even managed to hang on in this industry while starting and running a successful business, leaving them in the enviable position of being able to walk away from it all at any time. More often than not, a good educational background is essential for such transitions.

So leave the debate about the degree and Chuck Yeager skills in the dust. The real issue is covering your six the next time your "dream job" in aviation goes down in flames, if you ever get one in the first place. If it comes down to a financial choice between flying and getting a degree, forget about flying -- get the degree.

 

[FN FAL]

Perhaps I got a little carried away in my response to educated idiots...But while he/she is in college other candidates are out there learning lifes most challenging classes LIFE ON THE LINE...​

Not in all cases...I will have logged 1,000 additional hours of PIC turbine while attending college.​

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