The actual ASA PBS LOA is out.

[USCtrojan]

Oh, and I'm voting yes because I think it will be better for the pilots, as well as the company as a whole. PBS is a more advanced method of bidding, and will be better than line bidding just due to that fact alone, not to mention all of the other advantages negotiated into the LOA. Why would I want someone else to build my schedule?

Count me as a yes as well. I like the language and we can iron it out in section 6 when we get there.

Trojan

 

[aircombat]

Senior FOs will not like that some of the better pairings will not be available for them to bid on. Pairings that line check pilots bid on will not be available for FOs to bid (13.U.4.2). They will either be used for training or put into open time!

 

[EV120]

For the near term, there is no training taking place. If training starts, senior FO's will be the ones getting trained through upgrades.

I withhold my vote until I see it all and have it explained.

 

[gator_hater]

PBS is a more advanced method of bidding, and will be better than line bidding just due to that fact alone... Why would I want someone else to build my schedule?

I had to bid for FEB around a single day. With PBS I could simply adjust my "normal" preferences to shift my flying that week and not get forced into eliminating half of our line choices. Among other benefits sounds like a winner... but I'll reserve final judgement for after a road show.

 

[sinkrate]

I'm not an ASA pilot but I do have a lot of experience with different PBS systems, their use and application. PBS is not new. It has been around since the 80's. It is definitely a double edged sword. When negotiated and used to your benefit it can be very beneficial for you. The pilot groups that have the most experience with PBS are America West, Hawaiian and NW. They love it - now. But those same pilot groups have been hopelessly screwed with it too. Like most pilot groups when implementing PBS you guys on this forum are focusing on the wrong things. That will lead you to bad decisions and contract language. PBS changes almost every single aspect of how pilots are scheduled. There is no comparison with bid lines. You need to data dump everything you think you know about line construction and start with a clean sheet of paper.

Some things to consider
-Management can take two different approaches to using PBS. The first is a misguided attempt to improve 'utilization'. That can only be done with the marketing schedule and trip construction. If they attempt to use PBS for this they are using it to reduce line holders days off. This was tried by America West in the late 90's, NW in the summer of '06 and a number of other properties. It results in a lot of cancellations and a miserable pilot group with every one scheduled at or near the min days off. The contract language that facilitates this revolves around vacation and training credit and line minimum and maximum values. In NW's case they received no credit for vacation or training and their lines were still constructed to the maximum credit.
-After management screws this up they either keep banging your head against the wall trying to make it work or they learn to use PBS as a cost management tool - the second approach. When used as a cost management tool they simply want every pilot to earn his minimum guarantee for the month. The vacation and training credits that lines are constructed with will equal the actual pay you receive for them. When this approach is used it can be very, very good for the pilot group. It is a cost management tool that reduces the cost of being over staffed to a minimum.

You need to look at the language and see which approach it is taking. Open time issues such as trip swap systems become almost irrelevant. There should be a minimum of open time, if any, at the end of line construction. Any language that forces the company to leave time in open time should be considered very carefully. With PBS systems in place management will learn to run a bare bones reserve system - they won't be working much - and any big increase in open time tends to result in mandatory over time.

Linking PBS to issues other than line construction has generally, but not all the time, resulted in poor PBS language for the pilots. You make concessions you shouldn't. PBS should be considered on its own. The LOA process you are evidiently using, outside of Section 6 negotiations, gives you a lot of leverage for this. Fix your other problems in Section 6 negotiations.

Most pilot groups, once they get it right, love PBS. NW, America West, Hawaiian and PCL are good examples. Get it wrong - CAL, United and you will hate it. The system involved doesn't seem to make a difference. Some of the users of the NavTec system love it, some hate it. The same for the Kronos system. The key is knowing what to negotiate.

Good luck.

 

[Crash Pad]

This is awesome. Suddenly everyone is worried about reserve. Is that because 8 year captains are discovering reserve again for the first time. Missed you guys on the last round of negotiations.

Hey I have an idea. We ditch the union... bam 2% raise. We get skywests working agreement... see PBS... I think then we might have a shot at growth.

Oh yeah... Who is the arrogant idiot that thinks we will have industry leading PBS on our first attempt? We have been using line bidding forever and still F&&&ed up the scheduling section of our last contract.

I will vote yes... just to watch the senior guys eat poop for the first 6 months trying to figure out the system. Excited to hear the crew room once this turd passes.

Love that we can't do a mock bid. Wonder why that is.

 

[Crash Pad]

I'm not an ASA pilot but I do have a lot of experience with different PBS systems, their use and application. PBS is not new. It has been around since the 80's. It is definitely a double edged sword. When negotiated and used to your benefit it can be very beneficial for you. The pilot groups that have the most experience with PBS are America West, Hawaiian and NW. They love it - now. But those same pilot groups have been hopelessly screwed with it too. Like most pilot groups when implementing PBS you guys on this forum are focusing on the wrong things. That will lead you to bad decisions and contract language. PBS changes almost every single aspect of how pilots are scheduled. There is no comparison with bid lines. You need to data dump everything you think you know about line construction and start with a clean sheet of paper.

Some things to consider
-Management can take two different approaches to using PBS. The first is a misguided attempt to improve 'utilization'. That can only be done with the marketing schedule and trip construction. If they attempt to use PBS for this they are using it to reduce line holders days off. This was tried by America West in the late 90's, NW in the summer of '06 and a number of other properties. It results in a lot of cancellations and a miserable pilot group with every one scheduled at or near the min days off. The contract language that facilitates this revolves around vacation and training credit and line minimum and maximum values. In NW's case they received no credit for vacation or training and their lines were still constructed to the maximum credit.
-After management screws this up they either keep banging your head against the wall trying to make it work or they learn to use PBS as a cost management tool - the second approach. When used as a cost management tool they simply want every pilot to earn his minimum guarantee for the month. The vacation and training credits that lines are constructed with will equal the actual pay you receive for them. When this approach is used it can be very, very good for the pilot group. It is a cost management tool that reduces the cost of being over staffed to a minimum.

You need to look at the language and see which approach it is taking. Open time issues such as trip swap systems become almost irrelevant. There should be a minimum of open time, if any, at the end of line construction. Any language that forces the company to leave time in open time should be considered very carefully. With PBS systems in place management will learn to run a bare bones reserve system - they won't be working much - and any big increase in open time tends to result in mandatory over time.

Linking PBS to issues other than line construction has generally, but not all the time, resulted in poor PBS language for the pilots. You make concessions you shouldn't. PBS should be considered on its own. The LOA process you are evidiently using, outside of Section 6 negotiations, gives you a lot of leverage for this. Fix your other problems in Section 6 negotiations.

Most pilot groups, once they get it right, love PBS. NW, America West, Hawaiian and PCL are good examples. Get it wrong - CAL, United and you will hate it. The system involved doesn't seem to make a difference. Some of the users of the NavTec system love it, some hate it. The same for the Kronos system. The key is knowing what to negotiate.

Good luck.

Wow we are screwed!

 

[www.]

The Company and the Union missed an opportunity then. Fixing (or at least improving) the reserve system would have helped in a lot of ways. Not only would the quality of life for Reserves been improved, but that improvement could have rallied a lot of support behind the PBS vote. Line holders can't reasonably expect Reserves (who have no hope of holding a line any time soon) to support an agreement that offers them little. The Union and the Company had a chance to show the entire pilot group some improvement. Instead, they more or less gave the Reserves the finger.
Further, improving the QOL of Reserves now would help over the looming grind of contract negotiations. The Union shouldn't be overly surprised when the Reserves aren't particularly excited to rally round the flag during negotiations. And May isn't that far off.

Well the guys that are on the bubble of a line and RES might want to think about this. On the 200 there are 7 cpts and 7 fos, approx, that are on VAC per week. Under current book that means that any trips during these weeks of VAC fall into initial open time. That means that no one has access to these trips to build their line. So under PBS 7 cpt and 7 fos, that were on RES, would now be able to build their lines since the flying stays in the pot to build lines. Also, throw into the mix of TRN will be the same way. Meaning more pilots bidding a line instead of sitting RES.

So what were you saying about the RES guys not holding a line anytime soon?

 

[Poppa Hodax]

[snip]...So under PBS 7 cpt and 7 fos, that were on RES, would now be able to build their lines since the flying stays in the pot to build lines. Also, throw into the mix of TRN will be the same way.
[snip]

So what were you saying about the RES guys not holding a line anytime soon?

Seven captains and seven FOs on vacation do not really constitute growth in the industry that results in people moving on and up. The general consensus seems to be that no airline will be doing any significant hiring for a while, which in turn means stagnation in the seniority lists. Pilots should consider the likelihood that they will remain where they are (seat and seniority) for a while.
Unless I am much mistaken, of course.

 

[aircombat]

Thank you sinkrate for some actual constructive input. Like most contracts there is a lot to think about. Good luck trying to get this pilot group to think outside the box and stop being so narrow minded. I don’t know how many times I have heard. “The company doesn’t do it now so why would they do it with PBS”. I believe a lot of people think the worse it can get is 4 days on 3 days off.

 

[www.]

Seven captains and seven FOs on vacation do not really constitute growth in the industry that results in people moving on and up. The general consensus seems to be that no airline will be doing any significant hiring for a while, which in turn means stagnation in the seniority lists. Pilots should consider the likelihood that they will remain where they are (seat and seniority) for a while.
Unless I am much mistaken, of course.

I thought this was about PBS, not growth?

So once again. Your telling the people on the bump that don't consider PBS even though you may begin to get a hard line if PBS passes?

 

[aircombat]

This is awesome. Suddenly everyone is worried about reserve. Is that because 8 year captains are discovering reserve again for the first time. Missed you guys on the last round of negotiations.

Hey I have an idea. We ditch the union... bam 2% raise. We get skywests working agreement... see PBS... I think then we might have a shot at growth.

Oh yeah... Who is the arrogant idiot that thinks we will have industry leading PBS on our first attempt? We have been using line bidding forever and still F&&&ed up the scheduling section of our last contract.

I will vote yes... just to watch the senior guys eat poop for the first 6 months trying to figure out the system. Excited to hear the crew room once this turd passes.

Love that we can't do a mock bid. Wonder why that is.

Sorry Crash Pad still not really a shot at growth if we adopted Skywest’s work agreement. We would still be more expensive. It’s one of the disadvantages of being a senior airline. Our other departments are also more expensive. Merging the seniority lists is the only hope for growth.

You are right that the people that hover over their computer will have a better chance at a good schedule. The people that go over this pairing by pairing will be better off. Seems like a lot of work to me. How many pairings are on the 200 per month?

 

[Poppa Hodax]

Your (sic) telling the people on the bump that don't consider PBS even though you may begin to get a hard line if PBS passes?

The seven folks on the bump might get a line, depending on line construction. There are a lot of things that will impact how much time is left over towards the bottom of the Scheduling grab bag for guys to build lines. In discussion with some Union guys, I was given to understand the old system of X number of days on/Y number of days off doesn't really apply under PBS. The system will build a line to meet the number of hours you want to fly. Pilots might have to fly a three day followed by a two day to meet what they told the computer they want to fly. All of that, in addition to whether folks are on vacation, training issues, and the like, not to mention that every month Delta sends over what they want ASA to fly will determine whether the cusp guys get a line or not. I don't believe that the blanket statement of seven pilots are on vacation guarantees that seven more guys get a line under PBS.
But for the sake of discussion, let's assume that the seven guys on the cusp get a line. The rest of the reserves still don't get a lot.
My point wasn't about growth or whether one might or might not get a line, but rather that the Union and the Company had a chance to improve the lot of all the Reserves, and that improvement might have swung some reactionary no votes to yes votes, as well as made life in general, and during the upcoming negotiations, more bearable.

 

[OCP]

But for the sake of discussion, let's assume that the seven guys on the cusp get a line. The rest of the reserves still don't get a lot.

Just to nit pick a little, that is not true. Because those 7 people got a line then everyone moves up and maybe someone who couldn't get weekends off now can. Or now someone can get long call. When you are on reserve, every little bit makes a big difference in quality of life.

 

[sweptback]

Just to nit pick a little, that is not true. Because those 7 people got a line then everyone moves up and maybe someone who couldn't get weekends off now can. Or now someone can get long call. When you are on reserve, every little bit makes a big difference in quality of life.

Not to mention with those 7 pilots' pairings now out of open time, hopefully reserves will do what they were meant to do, cover IROPs and sick calls. Not staff the airline, like they are doing now.

 

[www.]

The rest of the reserves still don't get a lot.
My point wasn't about growth or whether one might or might not get a line, but rather that the Union and the Company had a chance to improve the lot of all the Reserves, and that improvement might have swung some reactionary no votes to yes votes, as well as made life in general, and during the upcoming negotiations, more bearable.

Well you can say they got a great deal, specifically what they asked for in a new RES system, under section 6 last time and some pilots got very little when it came to the Sec. 13.

Section 6 starts in a few months. Clean up the enite contract then.

 

[www.]

Sorry Crash Pad still not really a shot at growth if we adopted Skywest’s work agreement. We would still be more expensive. It’s one of the disadvantages of being a senior airline. Our other departments are also more expensive. Merging the seniority lists is the only hope for growth.

You are right that the people that hover over their computer will have a better chance at a good schedule. The people that go over this pairing by pairing will be better off. Seems like a lot of work to me. How many pairings are on the 200 per month?

Uh, they don't have an agreement. They do not have a union. And they are using AOS for PBS.

 

[Poppa Hodax]

I don't believe that the blanket statement of seven pilots are on vacation guarantees that seven more guys get a line under PBS.

Just to nit pick a little, that is not true.

My apologies. I thought I had made it clear that I didn't think it was true, as well. Trying to predict how far down the lines will go is more or less an exercise in futility.

When you are on reserve, every little bit makes a big difference in quality of life.

I could not agree more.

Section 6 starts in a few months. Clean up the enite (sic) contract then.

Great. Let's roll the vote on PBS into that morass. Take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

 

[aircombat]

Uh, they don't have an agreement. They do not have a union. And they are using AOS for PBS.

other good reasons why we can't become cheaper. They will just lower the bar one notch lower than us if need be.

 

[aircombat]

Am I the only one that think it’s ironic how many of the people supporting this LOA have an avatar or quote concerning Obama or his healthcare bill. The similarities between this LOA and the “public option” are uncanny.

First you have to have the vague catch phrase such as “Change or Growth”. No strong details will be offered so that you can jump to your own conclusions and it will be your fault when it doesn’t happen.
Then they both were constructed under secretive closed doors and pushed through in an expeditious manner. They both are long and filled with additives in order to buy votes and distract from the real issue. Finally, they both favor the less working minority at the expense of the harder working majority.