Thanks Jetblue and Spirit for raising the bar.

[GogglesPisano]

Also, under Citizens United, Unions can engage in direct contributions, not just via the pac. . .

ALPA has not.

 

[$$$4nothin]

Why are you so convinced that JB pilots could not create an effective In House union? You have plenty of pilots so the dues would buy you whatever expertise you want - and you are in NYC so you have the best attoreys and financial experts in the world at your doorstep. Just curious why you are selling yourself short. . .

1. The company would spend more to fight an in house at every turn than dues could cover.
2. Management is hostile towards unions therefore in house wouldn't work.
3. Didn't work for FedEx
4. A vote for an in house union already failed once.
5. Those best attorneys in NY cost way more than our dues would cover
6. We already have a student council made up of pilots. We need more than that.
7. Would take years just to set up the infrastructure of the entire in-house let alone negotiate a CBA

I am pro company. However I am also pro pilot. I think what helps the employee ultimately makes the company stronger. However convincing a bean counter of that over the next qtr profits is hard to do. ALPA has its issues, but it is what is best for the group.

Again I ask. Would you get rid of all your ALPA representation and protections to let your CEO and BOD make all your work rule and compensation changes at there whim. If the answer is anything except of course I would, which it obviously isn't this conversation is pretty much over

 

[Smarta$$]

I have no problem with my in house union lobbying. I have an issue with ALPA supporting an agenda that is not 100% in the best interest of pilots at my company.

Also, under Citizens United, Unions can engage in direct contributions, not just via the pac. . .

Wait, you are mad that ALPA, in your opinion, contributes to Democrat politicians, but can only legally do so because of citizens united, a conservative ruling?

 

[dicko]

Everybody has to do what they see as best, but the merger protections with ALPA are questionable.

Examples:

USAir-America West...both ALPA, did binding arbitration, theoretically should have been rather straight forward...didn't work out well, "binding" wasn't binding and has never been implemented, USAir dumps ALPA.

AirTran...bought by non-ALPA carrier, AT ALPA reps under guidance of ALPA attorneys accepted the worst of the three seniority proposals offered. Pilots screwed out of a chance to vote on a nearly immediate 50% pay raise. Didn't work out well but ALPA keeps collecting AT dues. So, ALPA cost AT plenty.

I can understand the appeal of ALPA when you don't have it, but the realities are what they are. A former NWA guy told me they were happy with the DAL deal because they got a pay raise in return for seniority...oops, sounds familiar!

You forgot TWA. So, let's amend the list of mergers where having ALPA wasn't exactly a boon:

1. TWA and AA,

2. US Air and America West,

3. SWA and AirTran.

ALPA has been found guilty of violating its DFR twice. Once with its own employees union and once with TWA. On the other hand, if your choice is no union or ALPA. Choose ALPA. Some of their services are excellent.

 

[$$$4nothin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1ce2thJfFs&feature=youtu.be

 

[Jetjockey]

Are most of you aware that independent unions often consult with ALPA national for many resources? It's truly pathetic how most pilots feel unionism is a spectator sport.

 

[boomlrd]

Nice job.

About $190 an hour and over $200 in a couple years.

Uh you are kidding, right? As a Spirit pilot, I see firsthand how we are treated and I can tell you that our concessionary contract raised no bar. We are still the lowest paid Airbus operators in the U.S. Virgin and Jetblue make more than me and they are both non-union. Our health care is no longer capped in this contract, it goes up 7% per year. We have no overtime pay anymore, no night override, no real international pay (Colombia is the only "international" location). We now pay dues on our 401k contributions, (thanks ALPA). No profit sharing, no stock options, no defined contribution, our 401k matching contributions are the lowest in the industry at 8%. We went on strike for this? I am sorry to my fellow pilots for being a part of lowering the bar, but once again, I will always vote no to any future contract that is not industry leading, we are the most profitable airline in the world, I am tired of our union demeaning us as a "little airline" that cannot be compared to DL, SWA, UA, etc. Industry leading profits! I want an industry leading contract! Unfortunately the MEC will use the same negotiators as last time, they lowered first year pay! Come on! It was not bad enough??

 

[ROSWELL41]

Uh you are kidding, right? As a Spirit pilot, I see firsthand how we are treated and I can tell you that our concessionary contract raised no bar. We are still the lowest paid Airbus operators in the U.S. Virgin and Jetblue make more than me and they are both non-union. Our health care is no longer capped in this contract, it goes up 7% per year. We have no overtime pay anymore, no night override, no real international pay (Colombia is the only "international" location). We now pay dues on our 401k contributions, (thanks ALPA). No profit sharing, no stock options, no defined contribution, our 401k matching contributions are the lowest in the industry at 8%. We went on strike for this? I am sorry to my fellow pilots for being a part of lowering the bar, but once again, I will always vote no to any future contract that is not industry leading, we are the most profitable airline in the world, I am tired of our union demeaning us as a "little airline" that cannot be compared to DL, SWA, UA, etc. Industry leading profits! I want an industry leading contract! Unfortunately the MEC will use the same negotiators as last time, they lowered first year pay! Come on! It was not bad enough??

'Concessionary'? You need a reality check big guy. How about you actually read the CBAs of other airlines and get back to us. The few I know with opinions like yours are so ignorant of other airlines CBAs it's astounding.

 

[HRDiva]

Boomlrd, I don't fly airplanes but I do know benefits. Limiting increases in health insurance costs to 7% coupled with free dental, is unheard of in the rest of the world, including the airline industry. And the limit applies to copays and deductibles. I just got my renewal quote in at a 12% increase. I will be happy to get the insurance company down to 7%.

 

[boomlrd]

Oh, I guess I am ruffling the Spirit MEC ALPA feathers. I have been at other airlines, I know other CBAs, Teamsters too. Truth hurts, we went on Strike for ALPA, and Airtran, we all know it.

Roswell41, was anything I said above a lie or incorrect? Please quote any inaccuracies.

 

[igneousy2]

Boomlrd, I don't fly airplanes but I do know benefits. Limiting increases in health insurance costs to 7% coupled with free dental, is unheard of in the rest of the world, including the airline industry. And the limit applies to copays and deductibles. I just got my renewal quote in at a 12% increase. I will be happy to get the insurance company down to 7%.

A medical insurance program for pilots would be an insurance companies dream. A group that is healthier than average, needs to get looked at by a physician every six months, and are fired if they show any signs of starting to get "really" sick.

In "the rest of the world" would employees be off insurance companies rolls if you got diagnosed with sleep apnea or had to take drugs for diabetes or was diagnosed with a psychiatric condition?

This is not "the rest of the world."

 

[SAABaroowski]

Oh, I guess I am ruffling the Spirit MEC ALPA feathers. I have been at other airlines, I know other CBAs, Teamsters too. Truth hurts, we went on Strike for ALPA, and Airtran, we all know it.

Roswell41, was anything I said above a lie or incorrect? Please quote any inaccuracies.

I'm just short of a year here so I am still a FNG, however I think the short comings in the contract are partly due to the industry as a whole in 2010. CALs first year pay was $29 and second year and third year pay were like 58 & 67 or something horrid like that (with no health care for 6months), United was in the ********************ter making equally less and MESA practically had a better contract then US Airways. American had 1,000+ guys on furlough.

We sure as ******************** need some pretty significant gains come 2015 considering the recent legacy contracts but like I said, at the time, I'm not so sure the contract that you struck for was as ********************ty as you make it sound........

 

[ROSWELL41]

I'm just short of a year here so I am still a FNG, however I think the short comings in the contract are partly due to the industry as a whole in 2010. CALs first year pay was $29 and second year and third year pay were like 58 & 67 or something horrid like that (with no health care for 6months), United was in the ********************ter making equally less and MESA practically had a better contract then US Airways. American had 1,000+ guys on furlough.

We sure as ******************** need some pretty significant gains come 2015 considering the recent legacy contracts but like I said, at the time, I'm not so sure the contract that you struck for was as ********************ty as you make it sound........

Don't feed the troll. He's part of a small and shrinking minority of NK pilots who bash ALPA every chance they get yet run to them when our management hoses them over.

Are we the highest paid A320 pilots in the industry? No.

Are we compensated more highly than VX, F9, B6 and G4? Yes, in most instances save for certain areas with B6.

Do we have a better scheduling section of the CBA than pretty much all legacies and LCCs in this industry? Yes

Are we likely to continue to improve our CBA to be industry leading? Most likely, unless a small and vocal minority insists on a premium pay system at the expense of all other valuable provisions of our CBA.

So go ahead, if that's concessionary than so be it.

 

[boomlrd]

Don't feed the troll. He's part of a small and shrinking minority of NK pilots who bash ALPA every chance they get yet run to them when our management hoses them over.

Are we the highest paid A320 pilots in the industry? No.

Are we compensated more highly than VX, F9, B6 and G4? Yes, in most instances save for certain areas with B6.

Do we have a better scheduling section of the CBA than pretty much all legacies and LCCs in this industry? Yes

Are we likely to continue to improve our CBA to be industry leading? Most likely, unless a small and vocal minority insists on a premium pay system at the expense of all other valuable provisions of our CBA.

So go ahead, if that's concessionary than so be it.

ROSWELL41, I would say we are slowly becoming a majority at Spirit. You can claim the above statements on pay despite having APC stating otherwise for all of those airlines, is APC lying about pay rates? I know many pilots at each of these airlines, W2 and days off don't lie, we get paid less and we work more. I think many of us "26%er's" are relatively professional about our views, yes there are some militants, but I believe the MEC has several of those as well, you ever heard of Doug Polletti? Have you ever been to an MEC meeting or a roadshow? If you even ask a question that is not in lockstep with our MEC ALPA staffing agenda, you get yelled at and even threatened. So tell me who is really the reasonable one? Using the term "troll" to discredit an opposing opinion does not change the fact that my previous post of the items we lost in this contract are in fact real and true, should I post both contracts for you to read? BTW, I will give you Frontier by a dollar, you got me on that one, but I never said Frontier in my above post.

 

[HRDiva]

A medical insurance program for pilots would be an insurance companies dream. A group that is healthier than average, needs to get looked at by a physician every six months, and are fired if they show any signs of starting to get "really" sick.

In "the rest of the world" would employees be off insurance companies rolls if you got diagnosed with sleep apnea or had to take drugs for diabetes or was diagnosed with a psychiatric condition?

This is not "the rest of the world."

The problem is that you don't know what you are talking about. You go fly airplanes and leave the benefits expertise to those that know. Have a good day!