Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Ted gets star-ted at DEN, LAS

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web

pb4ufly

Just a Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2001
Posts
131
New United low-fare carrier debuts with initial flights today

By David Kesmodel, Rocky Mountain News
February 12, 2004

You've seen the ads. You've heard the hype. Perhaps you even gorged on one of the free burritos.

Now you get to meet Ted.

United Airlines' new low-fare carrier makes its debut today in Denver, with flights to Fort Lauderdale, Fla., and Las Vegas.

If you're flying Ted - short for United - expect a lot of personal attention.

Fliers will hear "Thank you for flying Ted" over the intercom, and they'll be told to buckle their seatbelts because "Ted wants you to be safe."

Passengers also will listen to Tedtunes, gnaw on Ted sandwiches and sip Ted's favorite beer. (OK, the secret's out: It's Foster's Lager.)

United, the 78-year-old carrier with the buttoned-down image, wants its new airline, based at DIA, to be fun and neighborly.

Chicago-based United even gave Ted a splashy blue-and-orange paint job to help distinguish it from its gray-and-blue parent. It used a quirky stealth marketing campaign last year to tease Ted's arrival, replete with burrito and pizza giveaways from an invisible "Ted."

The moves are part of an effort to win back passengers who have bypassed United in recent years to book trips on discount rivals such as Frontier, Southwest and JetBlue.

By being colorful and folding Ted flights into the vast United route network, United thinks people will pick Ted over rivals when ticket prices are similar.

The fast-growing low-fare sector has given Denver's dominant carrier fits. It is one reason United is flying under Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.

As part of its effort to step out of bankruptcy, United parent UAL Corp. is taking the risky step of launching an airline-within-an-airline less than three years after its last such effort, Shuttle by United, failed.

United executives stress that Ted's route structure is different than Shuttle's and contend it has a better chance to turn a profit.

For one, they say, its costs will be much lower than Shuttle's because of the massive wage and benefit cuts United employees took last year.

But many industry analysts are skeptical. Some think United could be neglecting its main operation at a critical juncture by spending too much time on Ted, which initially will operate less than 10 percent of its fleet.

They also question whether Ted's costs will be low enough to make it profitable.

Ted's fares generally match those of rivals such as Denver-based Frontier.

"They're trying to focus on the hip image of a JetBlue, but they're forgetting that the real thing about JetBlue is the low costs," said Alan Sbarra, vice president of Unisys R2A Transportation Management Consultants in Oakland, Calif. "Having a hip image isn't enough in this industry."

Executives say Ted will be cost- competitive by using its planes more efficiently and offering more seats for sale per flight than United did on the same routes, he said.

"But that doesn't get them to Southwest-type costs or Frontier-type costs," Sbarra said. "It's not really a long-term solution."

The main problem, he said: Ted workers operate under the same labor contracts as United employees do, while other low-fare carriers tend to have lower pay rates.

Southwest's cost per seat flown a mile - the industry's main method to measure expenses - was 7.69 cents last quarter. Frontier's was 8.31 cents. United's was 9.85 cents.

Mike Boyd, an Evergreen-based aviation consultant, thinks Ted is just United cloaked in different colors.

"Never in the history of aviation has a coat of paint been so expensively promoted," he said in his online newsletter. "The sector costs of running the airplane will be the same as before, and fares will remain matched with Frontier, just as before."

The carrier is a distraction, he contends. And if Ted fails to be profitable, United will be worse off than it was before, he said.

Sean Donohue, United's vice president for Ted, has said the carrier is being choosy about which routes it flies so it can be profitable.

He says Ted will be cost-competitive with discount rivals on the same routes but hasn't disclosed the carrier's target figure for unit costs.

"We know Ted's unit costs will be lower than (United's) main line, and we'll be competitive," United spokesman Jeff Green said Wednesday.

Bookings on Ted are on target with expectations, "and we're pleased with that," he added.

Although United flight attendants will picket Ted flights today over United's plan to cut retirees' health benefits, Green said workers generally are fired up about Ted.

United had to order 2,000 Ted caps in Denver, where it employs about 6,000, because so many workers wanted them, he said.

Ted also starts Las Vegas-San Francisco service today.

Ted will fly to a total of eight cities from DIA by mid-March, including Orlando, Fla., and New Orleans. Aside from a few new routes, Ted is replacing service that United had operated.

Its focus is on leisure destinations.

Ted plans to base 19 single-aisle Airbus A320 jets in Denver by year-end and have about 45 of the planes in the Ted fleet.

United removed first-class seating from the Ted aircraft. The all-coach setting allows it to offer 156 seats, 18 more than on United's regular A320s.

Passengers will be able to buy food - including sandwiches, salads and chips - and drinks.

Jeff Potter, Frontier's chief executive, said money-making Frontier is ready for the competition.

While Ted is celebrating its launch today, Potter will meet with Frontier workers on DIA's Concourse A and offer some encouraging words.

Frontier plans no major response to Ted's launch. "If we tried to react to everything that this industry presents, we'd go crazy," Potter said.

Sales of Ted tickets appear to have had little impact on Frontier's business, he said. Ted initially is overlapping about 18 percent of Frontier's routes.

Frontier's bookings this month and in March and April are up against year-ago levels, and "that's also for the markets Ted serves," Potter said.
 
As someone has already said. Total Economic Disaster. I do wish TED's employees the best. I just think time and money would be better spent on mainline. Just look at Song. Has not done well at all.
 
a320driver,

How do you know that? I am lost here---we are full and with the cold weather up North--we are packed to FLA. Have you seen the numbers for Song? Some analyst supposedly did---even though I doubt that. Cocky, cocky.....

Bye Bye--General Lee:mad: :rolleyes:
 
G-

Frontier, Frontier, Frontier, can we all say that? The markets are already over saturated with others..

come on Gen, kind of a surprising post coming from you.


3 5 0
 
Fliers will hear "Thank you for flying Ted" over the intercom...

Don't you hear Thank you for flying United if you are on one of their flights? It's a dumbass idea. So is Song. Why don't you big airlines hook that shiz up for everyone instead of dingle-berries in NYC or now DEN???

Oh yeah, we only have to have extra-good service where we have stiff competition. There is a reason that the big airlines are having trouble, they are too big to make changes in a timely manner. To get around that, they make some sort of facade airline that is more manageable and make the necessary changes there.
 
Last edited:
3 5 0,

What do you mean? I love it when people say they KNOW Song is losing money, when even our union people can't get the info. All I know is that we seem to be full when I am flying (not only then---but I do have some good landings every once and awhile).

Bye Bye--General Lee;) :rolleyes:
 
sitting in DEN right now enjoying a beer. Ted is putting on a production at the gates..... I have to say, I enjoyed the free cookie. Goes good with Sam Adams.....
Love the guy on the unicycle...

More employees than passengers though...

Good Luck
 
What do you mean? I love it when people say they KNOW Song is losing money, when even our union people can't get the info. All I know is that we seem to be full when I am flying (not only then---but I do have some good landings every once and awhile).

General,

I misread the way you worded the post, thought the initial few words were directed towards what a320 stated in the first portion of his post pertaining to TED. I have quite a few friends at DAL so surely not against that group, probably one of their biggest fans. Good luck to TED, hope they can make it work somehow but I think it surely will be an uphill struggle to say the least..

3 5 0
 
General,

Dont you think if Song was making money DAL would be boasting that fact? Do you live in a cave? If its doing so great, why is not being expanded? Song is a low fare airline, not a low cost airline. They are very different animals.
 
Just a couple observations and questions, and this is not an attempted flame, correct any mistaken assumptions on my part...

1. DAL will not admit to success ANYWHERE. If they say "Hey Pilots, Song's making a "TY" (@ss) load of money even at your salaries" what do you think the union reply to decreased compensation expenses be?

2. There just still seems to be something absolutely sickening and perverse about Pilots bragging that they are willing to do a job cheaper than others. It's like a tooth less fat aids infected wh0re bragging to a housewife that she gets more action cause she only charges $5.

3. FRNT will brag that bookings are still ahead of last year. The truth is they ARE. Seems it was less than a year ago that FRNT went to a "value pricing" scheme that significantly lowered it's average ticket take in favor of significantly higher LF's. Touble is, a sub 70% LF, while higher than some periods in the past, spells DOOM now.

4. Are Jblu pilots employeed on the a 5 year basis? Does that mean you get no retiree medical plan? If you try to organize a union (to maybe get a retiree medical plan), can the company then refuse to "re-up" you?

5. EVERY major airline would have been profitable last year with the same employee cost as Jblu, ie same TOTAL compensation. This includes retirement, medical, ect. EVERY SINGLE ONE. When you Jblu guys get closer to retirement age, and assuming you aren't relying on DAL, UAL, and AMR guys to fund your medical care in old age with their taxes, ie you GET some retirement benefits, will there be another guy with "X" starting up a hip airline with Jets much newer than the 20 plus YO 320's (the books say Jblu is planning on using them for 25 years, unless the books are fraudulent...) and young spunky employees who are too short sighted to consider retirement, who will then tout their "cost" advantage and find some glee in you becoming a ward of the state?
 
a320pilot,

Yes, I do live in a very very nice cave. What T-bags says is true---they will not say anything positive right now because they WANT PAY CUTS. Does that make sense to you? Does it? And as far as being a "low fare airline vs a low cost airline"--Most of Song's employees are seperate from Delta mainline's ---except for the high paid pilots and mechanics. Song's flight attendants and gate and ground people are paid lower. Does that help? Probably. We have offered (the pilots) to also take pay cuts, but they insist that they want 30%---no less. Re-read the article and see that even some of the analysts (who I don't always believe myself) think that Delta and NW should accept our offers and move on.

As far as Song being expanded---our new CEO Grinstein supposedly never liked the idea of two brands. That is his opinion--and he is CEO now. He can change whatever he wants. I think it would be a waste of time and money to just scrap the idea---it isn't even 1 year old. As we put in more IFE to the existing fleet (of 36 757s), people will like it more and they will get used to flying Song up and down the east Coast and to LAS/LAX etc.... Jetblue didn't just start out super successful---it took them awhile.


Bye Bye--General Lee;)
 
Ted

This new "Ted" could turn things around for United.

Yea, I'm no "analyst". But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night!
 
I think TED is designed to hurt the competitors---and maybe break even for UAL---I don't know if it will be a huge money maker. What were those two TED sayings again?

1. TED---the end of uniTED
2. TED---doesn't include U N I (you and I)

Good luck....

Bye Bye--General Lee;) :rolleyes:
 
T-Bags said:
Just a couple observations and questions, and this is not an attempted flame, correct any mistaken assumptions on my part...

1. DAL will not admit to success ANYWHERE. If they say "Hey Pilots, Song's making a "TY" (@ss) load of money even at your salaries" what do you think the union reply to decreased compensation expenses be?

2. There just still seems to be something absolutely sickening and perverse about Pilots bragging that they are willing to do a job cheaper than others. It's like a tooth less fat aids infected wh0re bragging to a housewife that she gets more action cause she only charges $5.

3. FRNT will brag that bookings are still ahead of last year. The truth is they ARE. Seems it was less than a year ago that FRNT went to a "value pricing" scheme that significantly lowered it's average ticket take in favor of significantly higher LF's. Touble is, a sub 70% LF, while higher than some periods in the past, spells DOOM now.

4. Are Jblu pilots employeed on the a 5 year basis? Does that mean you get no retiree medical plan? If you try to organize a union (to maybe get a retiree medical plan), can the company then refuse to "re-up" you?

5. EVERY major airline would have been profitable last year with the same employee cost as Jblu, ie same TOTAL compensation. This includes retirement, medical, ect. EVERY SINGLE ONE. When you Jblu guys get closer to retirement age, and assuming you aren't relying on DAL, UAL, and AMR guys to fund your medical care in old age with their taxes, ie you GET some retirement benefits, will there be another guy with "X" starting up a hip airline with Jets much newer than the 20 plus YO 320's (the books say Jblu is planning on using them for 25 years, unless the books are fraudulent...) and young spunky employees who are too short sighted to consider retirement, who will then tout their "cost" advantage and find some glee in you becoming a ward of the state?

I was wondering when T-Bags was gonna crawl out from under his rock with some numbers. Where ya been man? And more importantly, what does any of this have to do with the TED launch? Hey, why are you so he11 bent on converting the thinking of us JB guys? It puzzles me why you even care what we do. Explain to me how it effects you directly, or indirectly for that matter?
 
"It puzzles me why you even care what we do. Explain to me how it effects you directly, or indirectly for that matter?"

Thanks for answering the questions....:rolleyes: OF COURSE what YOU do affects the rest of us. LCC's make up over 20% of the market. you ARE bidding down wages. When the wages at the majors go down, yours will also (mark my word, Jblu will be asking you to "help them out" of financial difficulties within 5 years). In any case, if I crawled out form under a rock, you feel off my arm around two weeks after the small pox vacination...

As to TED. Load factors are being booked at better than 90%. It's been reported and I verified it by checking "sample" routes and dates. It ain't Rocket science, UAL is selling seats for the same price as before, but putting around 150 on each 320 vs 120 before. Looks like around 20% more revenue per flight....
 
As to TED. Load factors are being booked at better than 90%. It's been reported and I verified it by checking "sample" routes and dates. It ain't Rocket science, UAL is selling seats for the same price as before, but putting around 150 on each 320 vs 120 before. Looks like around 20% more revenue per flight....

Well what happened to Ted matching Frontier's fares? Isn't that lower than "same price as before" Bagger? I guess your MBA left out that rocket science bit, and the aeronautical science bit for that matter if I had to guess.

Also weren't some of these routes flown by 757's? If so isn't a 156 seat 320 (which needs four FAs) actually lowering ASM from a 757? And, follow closely Bagger, since Ted got all United's existing traffic on those routes (mid 70% range) that would account for some of the high loads on smaller aircraft.

So Bagger "In any case, if I crawled out form under a rock, you feel off my arm around two weeks after the small pox vacination..." make sure you rub your eyes after playing with 320, and crawl BACK under your rock.
 
"20 percent more revenue per flight" provided the fare did not change from previous, but was Ted not suppose to be offereing lower fares.

Just asking?

As far as calling LCC pilots scabs, I think that goes a wee bit to far. That would be like calling the Shuttle pilots scabs, but then again, UAL MEC agreed to lower pay for them. (Yes, yes I know later rescinded.) How about the former B-scale at AA. Of course, ALPA bent over backwards to allow CAL back onto the property. Then we have the "85'ers" at UAL so on, so forth. Plus we have the E-170 pilots at U, then again, their own MEC sold them down the river.

Boy, before you know it, the scab list gets really long.
 
T-Bags said:
Just a couple observations and questions, and this is not an attempted flame, correct any mistaken assumptions on my part...

1. DAL will not admit to success ANYWHERE. If they say "Hey Pilots, Song's making a "TY" (@ss) load of money even at your salaries" what do you think the union reply to decreased compensation expenses be?

2. There just still seems to be something absolutely sickening and perverse about Pilots bragging that they are willing to do a job cheaper than others. It's like a tooth less fat aids infected wh0re bragging to a housewife that she gets more action cause she only charges $5.

3. FRNT will brag that bookings are still ahead of last year. The truth is they ARE. Seems it was less than a year ago that FRNT went to a "value pricing" scheme that significantly lowered it's average ticket take in favor of significantly higher LF's. Touble is, a sub 70% LF, while higher than some periods in the past, spells DOOM now.

4. Are Jblu pilots employeed on the a 5 year basis? Does that mean you get no retiree medical plan? If you try to organize a union (to maybe get a retiree medical plan), can the company then refuse to "re-up" you?

5. EVERY major airline would have been profitable last year with the same employee cost as Jblu, ie same TOTAL compensation. This includes retirement, medical, ect. EVERY SINGLE ONE. When you Jblu guys get closer to retirement age, and assuming you aren't relying on DAL, UAL, and AMR guys to fund your medical care in old age with their taxes, ie you GET some retirement benefits, will there be another guy with "X" starting up a hip airline with Jets much newer than the 20 plus YO 320's (the books say Jblu is planning on using them for 25 years, unless the books are fraudulent...) and young spunky employees who are too short sighted to consider retirement, who will then tout their "cost" advantage and find some glee in you becoming a ward of the state?
1. You darn sure don't put a profitable business on hold, no matter what negotiations are going on. if they were making money with the whole concept, they'd be converting Cessna 152's if they thought they'd get away with it.

2. Just like a whole lot of businesses out there, a lot of our final compensation is based on stock options. There is absolutley no way in h-e-double hockey sticks you can make a final judgement on our compsenation this early in the game. So far, I'll take where I stand after three years of employment with any one hired at the same time at your airline. (I have no idea where you work, but I have a pretty good idea I am safe in this bet).

3.. Market forces tend to level the playing field. It all comes down to EPS (Earnings Per Share).

4. First, I have no idea why the idea of a five year contract seems to bug you. That's exactly what you'd have if you achieved your contract through collective bargaining isn't it? Second, anything close to what you describe would be in direct violation of the RLA. The NMB would have a field day.
Read for yourself

5. So you are telling me it cost AMR (who lost$7.76 a share with 159.3 million shares outstanding) $1,236,168,000 more last year to crew 50 jets than it did for us to crew 50 jets? [Remember, we only had , I think, 53 airplanes at the close of 2003] UUUHHH, ok. Please, remember economies of scale. Also keep in mind we crew around 13 pilots per aircraft. Last I knew, AMR crews 11 per MD-80 in New York. Please, let me know how you arrive at your figures with the greatest loss of any airline.

One more thing; remember also AMR led the industry in the "B" scale. If you really, truly wanted to give JetBlue a fair shake, you'd wait to see what the wages are listed at after five years of operation. That would put our most senior pilot on an even footing with a whole lot of pilots hired in the 80's. Instead, you compare a four year old company with 80 year old ones. There is no way that makes sense.

I know you claim your post was not meant to flame. With that said, if your claim were true, you might not want to compare us to
a tooth less fat aids infected wh0re bragging to a housewife
. Just a thought. :rolleyes:

Respectfully,

JayDub
 
I guess the facts became too inconvenient for Bag's rant over on the Cranes thread, so he's resurfaced here....with similar results. :rolleyes:
 
JayDub,
Thanks for the thoughtful response!!

1. Do you take profits now or do you get substantially lower wage rates and much BIGGER profits later?

2. It is not possible for EVERY airline to have it's stock go up 20-30% per year. What has been created is a situation where we are going to be underbidding each other trying to get a little more profit on stock. UAL will get stock and AMR got stock. If your company wants to give out stock, fine, butthat should be after ALL pilots make a certain baseline level of compensation. Stock options are great and SHOULD reward you for being the best dang pilot out there or the nicest employee, not the cheapest date...

3. Only when accounting is done properly (in the short term). That is what we are all pontificating about is isn't ? You guys say "TED and Song don't have a chance" we say "Jetblu is playing fast and loose with the books and won't last" Who's right? I'll let you know in 5 years....

4. my question is does the company have the right to tell you to go away after five years, without cause?

5. I don't think AMR lost 10 billion last year... (check number of zeros). Keep in mind that it is not a STATIC equation, and fro simplicity sake, change AMR's numbers to reflect the same compensation per employee.

Good points about B-scale. It was wrong, and all pilots paid for the temporary growth it brought AMR. As to CAL, tough call, I HATE scabs more than the next guy, I think the notion of trying to build a LARGER more unified pilot group led some of ALPA's leaders to hold their collective noses... The fact that Dubo supported it, says A LOT for that belief. I still don't like it.

"I know you claim your post was not meant to flame"

OK, fair enough, but I just get on a roll.....:D ;)
 

Latest resources

Back
Top