Teaching landings

[Cat Driver]

Not to keep kicking a dead horse, but can anyone here explain to me how a student can look at the far end of the runway and still be able to accurately judge their height above the runway while looking that far ahead?

 

[Lead Sled]

Not to keep kicking a dead horse, but can anyone here explain to me how a student can look at the far end of the runway and still be able to accurately judge their height above the runway while looking that far ahead?

Hey Cat...
I've kicked plenty of dead horses myself. I don't know how you could do it directly. I know of no other technique than the "glassy water" technique that is used when landing on calm water.

Lead Sled

 

[Cat Driver]

The " Glassy Water " technique is used because you can not judge height above glassy water. Glassy water landings demand the use of power to control rate of descent,,,landing on runways does not require power to control rate of descent.

When landing on runways you " should " be able to accurately judge height above them.

My question remains how can you accurately judge height while looking at the far end of the runway?

 

[IP076]

In response to minimum float...

I want to remind you that the stage of training is learning the landing, not taking the private pilot checkride. The student should understand the point that must eventually be reached for the checkride. However, this the first step of learning the flare and landing has been very beneficial to my students.

The passage you used from the Private Pilot PTS was for short field landing, that lesson is not breached until after solo when it is assumed that the student can land safely.

I addressed the Short Field landing reference, you didn't answer my question. Fundamentally, what is the difference?

I have another, do you think its better to teach a student one way of landing for 15 hours until solo, and then teach him something different. Why not do the same from day one?

 

[Jared_44]

I addressed the Short Field landing reference, you didn't answer my question. Fundamentally, what is the difference?

I have another, do you think its better to teach a student one way of landing for 15 hours until solo, and then teach him something different. Why not do the same from day one?

I mentioned short field v. normal landing because there is a difference. Fundamentally, yes, the only difference is speed and angle of approach. I still feel there is a big difference, however, because flying the aircraft at a slower approach speed requires mastery of the aircraft and often that is not achieved at 10-20 hours. The PTS requires minimum float for the soft field and minimum float is easier to achieve because the aircraft is already so slow.

I do agree with you that you should teach one way from the start. But as you well know not every student is the same. I was trying to recommend just another method (hold it off the r/w as long as possible w/ no power) of the millions out there that the CFI could suggest to the student to make the student think for themselves and begin to solve problems on their own

 

[IP076]

I still feel there is a big difference, however, because flying the aircraft at a slower approach speed requires mastery of the aircraft and often that is not achieved at 10-20 hours. The PTS requires minimum float for the soft field and minimum float is easier to achieve because the aircraft is already so slow.

You do realize we are talking about 4 knots? Most people at 10 hours are lucky to be able to maintain airspeed within 4 knots. C172SP Book speeds for a short field approach is 61 and normal is 65, correct? 61 knots is over 1.5 Vso. The safety margin there is more than enough to fly at 61 knots? You should not be anywhere near the stall during the landing apporach. I'd like to see someone explain why a short field is flown steeper and slower....actually, I wan't someone to explain why one should fly a normal landing approach shallower and faster? Why not make every landing a shortfield? Can you not do a short field and pass any checkride for Private or Commercial? I think most DE's would let the student do a short field and if he does it well, count it as a normal too. There doesn't have to be a difference.

What you say about minimum float easier to achieve because the airplane is flying slower is not technically correct. It seems correct, but it really depends on when one begins a power reduction, flare, transition, whatever....You could fly at 80 knots and still get no float if you start your transition earlier.... I guess my point being, you don't have to float, nor should you.

Anyways...this all makes for good discussion, and a good refresher for some of us who haven't practiced CFI'ing in a while!

 

[lancioair]

Instructor Writer

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[Cat Driver]

Good morning troops.

This is supposed to be about landings?

I am still waiting for someone to explain to me how you can accurately judge the height of the wheels above the runway just prior to touch down while you are looking at the far end of the runway.

It doesen't matter how perfect and satisfying your approach is you still have to be able to judge the height above the runway before the thing quits flying.

So can someone explain how you can look at the far end and still judge wheel height above the runway?

Humor me and explain this so I can understand the concept.
Cat Driver

 

[midlifeflyer]

I am still waiting for someone to explain to me how you can accurately judge the height of the wheels above the runway just prior to touch down while you are looking at the far end of the runway.

It doesen't matter how perfect and satisfying your approach is you still have to be able to judge the height above the runway before the thing quits flying.

So can someone explain how you can look at the far end and still judge wheel height above the runway?

You may be making an invalid assumption.

I don't teach or use "look at the far end of the runway" for a number of reasons (including that the end of the runway is usually blocked by the nose when certain airplanes are in the proper touchdown attitude).

But for those who do teach/use it, I doubt that they mean "look at the end of the runway to the exclusion of everything else." Knowing height above the ground involves a whole bunch of visual cues from sections of the runway to the surrounding ground, to buildings on the airport to looking down at the wheels in a high-wing to...

 

[rcsimpson]

Peripheral vision.

Humor me and explain this so I can understand the concept.
Cat Driver

 

[Cat Driver]

O.K. how about this senario.

I am making a steep approach over high trees in an Ag-plane and I want to start my spray run as close as possible in my run down the field...if I look a mile ahead ( 5000 foot runway ) while I am in my steep approach to judge when to level off will peripherial vision be sufficient to accurately judge height?

 

[52Vincent]

I like to teach the landing sequence in the same 3 phase technique that was mentioned by BoDean, APPROACH, ROUNDOUT, FLARE. This helps breakdown the landing sequence so that the student is'nt trying to do everything at once. Depending on the student it may benefit you to teach each area in a seperate lesson. Then, they can put it all together after they have mastered each area.

I like the idea of challenging the student to keep the plane off the gound as long as possible while reducing power, requiring them to place the airplane in the flaring configuration. I may try this with the next student who is having difficulties. Thx jared44.

However; something that has not been mentioned yet which may help you flyf15 is the overcontrolling issue which should be overcome by trimming the plane properly on the approach. I have noticed this not to be the case. Tell your students to fly the plane with their fingers or fingertips once trimmed not the palm of their hands. I have noticed even if the plane is trimmed the student still feels more comfortable with the Death Grip. Relieving the death grip will help the student make stabilized approaches leading to nicer landings. The next time your student has a questionable approach ask them to look at the palm of their hands, more times than not it is beet red (bring on the jokes). This has helped me tremendously.

My .02 cents worth, hope it helps.

 

[flyf15]

Hey guys, just thought I'd give you an update.

Had two lessons with the student who was being "shy" on the controls this weekend. Took a lot of the ideas in this thread and had a good ground session with him as to what exactly is going on when you land. After that, went up in the air and did power off stalls and discussed how the idea is the same as during the flare. Came back and did some touch and goes, 5 of his 6 landings were quite good (up from say, 1 out of every 5 before). Afterwards we debriefed and he remarked that he feels he really understands everything now...I must say, I am one happy instructor.

Thanks guys!

 

[Lead Sled]

O.K. how about this senario. I am making a steep approach over high trees in an Ag-plane and I want to start my spray run as close as possible in my run down the field...if I look a mile ahead ( 5000 foot runway ) while I am in my steep approach to judge when to level off will peripherial vision be sufficient to accurately judge height?

Hey, I've been doing this for nearly 40 years (I'm not all that old, but I managed to get my PPL in high school.) and I only know of two ways to do it (in addition to the "glassy water" technique"). The first method involves a radio altimeter. The second method involves your copilot and waiting for them to either gasp or scream.

I don't think that you can have the necessary depth perception with your gaze fixed on a distant point. But, I've been at this too long to know better than think that I know all there is to know about flying airplanes. So what's the answer?
Lead Sled

 

[Cat Driver]

Lead Sled :

Basically there are two aim points during a landing ( This is my method of teaching the subject of landing ) the first task is to determine when to change attitude from the approach attitude to the level attitude at about fifteen feet above the runway.

To best judge closure rate and height in this stage of the approach your aim point must be the point at which you plan on flaring to the level attitude.

Then as the flare is started you shift your center of sight ahead up the runway about four to five hundred feet ( the point on the runway where apparent movement ceases )

This method gives one the most accurate method to judge closure rate and height, making for far more controlled and accurate landings.

Far to many instructors teach the student to look at the far end of the runway before they begin the process of changing attitude from the approach attitude to the level attitude and then keep looking at the far end to complete the touch down...which makes for sloppy landings.

Cat Driver