Teaching landings

[Lead Sled]

Throttle to control altitude in a glider? Now I'm getting confused.

I was just checking to see if anyone was paying attention.

Actually, in a sense, you do kind'a use the dive brakes (spoilers) like a throttle in a glider. Simply put, you when you cross a reference point in the pattern you deploy the dive brakes to some intermediate position and from then on it's used basically like a "reverse" throttle in a light aircraft - if you find yourself too high you add some more; if you're too low, you remove some.

Lead Sled

 

[Tinstaafl]

They sound like they're looking just over the nose at the runway. Both students would probably benefit from flying level along the runway but for different purposes. Make sure it's a nil wind day with minimal turbulance. Early mornings are usually good.

1. The runway shy bloke: Have him fly level in trim at a low speed along a long runway a number of times. Gradually reduce the height until he's able to do it at hold off height. Once he can do this have him gradually reduce power while still trying to hold the height.

2. The control difficulties: Again, fly level along the runway at approach speed also in trim. Focus on maintaining straight & level. Demonstrate a sideslip to one side of the runway, stoping part way & then resuming. Reverse back to the centreline. Have the student follow through while you do this then give them a go.


In both of the above you're trying to remove the focus on 'landing' as well as any other extraneous tasks. They're your job. You'll also have to make sure the students are looking to an appropriate reference. Towards the end of the runway can work, as can a few hundred metres ie where the runway no longer appears to 'rush' towards you. Towards the end of the runway is simple because it's an obvious point. The regions where apparent movement ceases is more correct but less readily perceived.

Good luck.

 

[Cat Driver]

Hi Tinstaafl :

You are the first to address the where to look issue.

You of course are correct, the center of focus should be at that point up the runway where apparent movement of the markings cease to move toward you.

This point will vary depending on speed and height above the runway.

But for the purpose of the bug smashers used in training it is about four or five hundred feet up the runway.

Hint, next time you are driving down the highway look for the point where apparent movement ceases by looking at where the highway center line slash marks appear to move toward you...and there it is... the distance to look ahead to best judge height above the runway after assuming the level attitude in the flare from the approach attitude and in the latter stages of the hold off before touch down.

Looking at the far end of the runway will guarantee medicore results when landing.

Cat Driver

 

[Tinstaafl]

G'day Chuck.

Yes, although I think it might be advantageous for these two students to look towards the far end **initially**. If they're looking just in front of the a/c after all this time then a bit of overcompensation initially to snap them out of it won't hurt.

It'll also tend to reduce overcontrolling.

Are you still in sunny Europe?

 

[Cat Driver]

No I at home on Vancouver Island on a two week break.

The Dutch Cat is at Schipol airport being painted in the Dutch Naval scheme that was used during WW2 when they were flown in the Pacific theatre.

I am going back on Aug. 27 to continue the training of their pilots and also to give type rating training to a Dutch CAA guy.

I still hope to get down to Sidney to do some more flying on the HARS Cat some day, and to find out if all those Aussie women are all they are cracked up to be.

Are they really trained to do as they are told?

Chuck

 

[heavy_d]

I think the best way to teach landings is to give them numbers to use like after downwind past the threshold descend 400 ft. per minute for example, so they will always be set up good for the final approach. Obviously this is the most crusial point in the landing phase for students because its not as easy for them to cope with altitude corrections. Then tell them to focus on the end of the runway instead of right in front of them. I for example always come in with 1400 revs. after iv'e made the runway in the 152 and then tell them to leave the throttle alone. The best way to get students to start greasing landings after their pattern flight and approaches are perfected is to tell them to hold that 1400 revs. about 2ft. over the runway and keep pitching the nose just enough to hold that 2ft. and eventually the stall horn will go off and the plane will ease to the ground and you can chalk up another greased landing.
good luck!

 

[Tired Soul]

Several tricks I use:

*Demonstrate a stabilized approach, it's a dirty trick but I will demonstrate a landing with my hands off the yoke till the round out. Will give them the idea not to overcontrol and trim.
*I will start with teaching flapless landings( we train in 172 SP), it will teach them airspeed control above anything else. Landing distance is not important at this stage. Flaps will only make things complicated with pitch changes and speed changes.
*I tell them and demonstrate that you actually try "not to land" the airplane,
you just try to fly the airplane a foot off the runway as long as you can without power. I'll use a little drama and talk out loud and look disappointed when we actually touch down. This trick will have them (with your hands close) continually pull back very slowly in order to float just above the runway till the touchdown.
* We will do several low approaches and slowflight over the runway, I'll control the power. On the second or third pass I will slowly reduce the power while telling the otherwise, they concentrate so much on flying the airplane they won't notice till a (very) smooth touchdown...this one worked wonders several times, I'll use a little home made psychology on the side, tell them: " look you just did a good landing when I tricked you so the skill is there, now you need to convince YOURSELF you can do it..."

In any case a lot of improv is required when teaching landings, some of my tricks came up during spells of extreme boredom bordering lunacy...

 

[Jared_44]

I have had great success with teaching landings. My method relates closely to BoDean and his reply. Landing a "trainer" aircraft (i.e. small cessna) is not comparable to how landings are often portrayed either through hanger flying or on tv. Students see larger aircraft coming into an airport with a definite pitch up attitude and sometime try to replicate that.

The method that has given me the most success is in a game format. Challenge to student to fly a stabilized approach with constant airspeed, constant descent rate. Then as they cross the numbers (or approx 50 ft agl) gradually work the power to idle and challenge them to get the wheels as close to the ground as possible, WITHOUT letting them touch.

This encourages the student to fly the "three phase" landing where they level off first. As they try to hold the aircraft off the ground as long as possible they will end up in a flare for landing. As they get used to the view they will be able to hold the wheels a few inches from the ground.

I hope this helps, it certainly has done me well.

 

[IP076]

Excerpt from Private Pilot PTS:

F. TASK: SHORT-FIELD APPROACH (CONFINED AREA—ASES) AND
LANDING (ASEL and ASES)

REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3; POH/AFM.

Objective. To determine that the applicant:

1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to a short-field (confined
area ASES) approach and landing.
2. Adequately surveys the intended landing area (ASES).
3. Considers the wind conditions, landing surface, obstructions, and
selects the most suitable touchdown point.
4. Establishes the recommended approach and landing configuration
and airspeed; adjusts pitch attitude and power as required.
5. Maintains a stabilized approach and recommended approach
airspeed, or in its absence not more than 1.3 VSO, +10/-5 knots,
with wind gust factor applied.
6. Makes smooth, timely, and correct control application during the
roundout and touchdown.
7. Selects the proper landing path, contacts the water at the minimum
safe airspeed with the proper pitch attitude for the surface
conditions (ASES).
8. Touches down smoothly at minimum control airspeed (ASEL).
9. Touches down at or within 200 feet (60 meters) beyond a specified
point, with no side drift, minimum float and with the airplane's
longitudinal axis aligned with and over the runway center/landing
path.
10. Maintains crosswind correction and directional control throughout
the approach and landing sequence.
11. Applies brakes, (ASEL) or elevator control (ASEs), as necessary, to
stop in the shortest distance consistent with safety.
12. Completes the appropriate checklist.

I'm sorry, but I don't think that very many of these techniques will result in "Minimum" floating. I teach my students that they should be flaring "Through" ground effect rather than "in" ground effect. This tremendously reduces the floating, which in turn reduces the possibility of wheelbarrowing, porpoising, and many other common errors during this period of flight. The idea would be to have the aircraft in a level attitude before entering the significant portion of ground effect (around 1/2 wing span). Also, I'd say that some people may hold on to the power too long, which probably comes from a shallow approach path. How far out are you turning final? How high are you? I use 450-500 at 3/4 mile depending on wind in a C-172SP.

Remember, most landings and traffic pattern problems can be solved out in the Practice Area.

I like to take the students out to the practice area and cover up all the flight instruments. Ill have them fly straight and level, and mark an X on the windscreen at the horizon with a dry erase marker or grease pencil. Have them fly around like that and get some practice there. Then I will have them set up in a normal landing configuration, full flaps, power about 1600 (Your landing power may be a little lower, this was at a high elevation airport), and that level indication about 2" or so below the horizon. You can fiddle with the pitch, and periodically check the Airspeed until you get your desired airspeed. Now, take that same writing utensil, and draw a horizontal line across the windscreen at the horizon. You should have a line, and an X below the line now. Now, leave those there, and use them as aids on Final approach. With the power set at 1600, landing configuration, Place the Line on the windshield over the horizon. Now reference the X in relation to your landing spot. If the X is above the landing spot, your too high, reduce 100 RPM, adjust the attitude, and get to your glideslope. If the X is lower, add 100 or 200 RPM and adjust your attitude, to decrease the descent rate and end up on your desired glidepath. On glide path, on speed, and with the correct descent rate, you should have the X on the desired landing spot with the line on the horizon. When to start the transition one asks? Pick a reference point some distance before your desired landing point. If you start further away, it is easier to show a student how you are referring to the point moving. This point is just reference, dont aim at it or anything. When you are stabilized on final approach, reference this point to look for relative movement in the windscreen. You will notice the reference point start to slide under the nose while the landing spot remains fixed. At this point you start a slow power reduction, and increase pitch to maintain descent...easier put....reduce power and use elevator to fly your butt to the point. I usually start making the power reduction for a student to show them how far out it is made, most students like to carry the power too long.

Gosh, this would be alot easier to explain if we were in an airplane....chances are some of it may be confusing too you...its rather hard to type out! I'll have to see if I have some pictures or something I could use to help.

Oh yeah, before someone burns me on my PTS reference being short field landings, and we're talking normal landings. Can some one give me a difference between the two (not FAA PTS difference)?

One other thing, when telling a student to "reduce power" or "Increase pitch", its much easier for the student when you tell them "Take 100 RPM off" instead of "Pull a little power". Try to use defined values with a student. And also, it helps an initial student to use sound as a power setting, that way he/she is not staring inside trying to set power.

 

[Jared_44]

In response to minimum float...

I want to remind you that the stage of training is learning the landing, not taking the private pilot checkride. The student should understand the point that must eventually be reached for the checkride. However, this the first step of learning the flare and landing has been very beneficial to my students.

The passage you used from the Private Pilot PTS was for short field landing, that lesson is not breached until after solo when it is assumed that the student can land safely.

 

[Cat Driver]

Not to keep kicking a dead horse, but can anyone here explain to me how a student can look at the far end of the runway and still be able to accurately judge their height above the runway while looking that far ahead?

 

[Lead Sled]

Not to keep kicking a dead horse, but can anyone here explain to me how a student can look at the far end of the runway and still be able to accurately judge their height above the runway while looking that far ahead?

Hey Cat...
I've kicked plenty of dead horses myself. I don't know how you could do it directly. I know of no other technique than the "glassy water" technique that is used when landing on calm water.

Lead Sled

 

[Cat Driver]

The " Glassy Water " technique is used because you can not judge height above glassy water. Glassy water landings demand the use of power to control rate of descent,,,landing on runways does not require power to control rate of descent.

When landing on runways you " should " be able to accurately judge height above them.

My question remains how can you accurately judge height while looking at the far end of the runway?

 

[IP076]

In response to minimum float...

I want to remind you that the stage of training is learning the landing, not taking the private pilot checkride. The student should understand the point that must eventually be reached for the checkride. However, this the first step of learning the flare and landing has been very beneficial to my students.

The passage you used from the Private Pilot PTS was for short field landing, that lesson is not breached until after solo when it is assumed that the student can land safely.

I addressed the Short Field landing reference, you didn't answer my question. Fundamentally, what is the difference?

I have another, do you think its better to teach a student one way of landing for 15 hours until solo, and then teach him something different. Why not do the same from day one?

 

[Jared_44]

I addressed the Short Field landing reference, you didn't answer my question. Fundamentally, what is the difference?

I have another, do you think its better to teach a student one way of landing for 15 hours until solo, and then teach him something different. Why not do the same from day one?

I mentioned short field v. normal landing because there is a difference. Fundamentally, yes, the only difference is speed and angle of approach. I still feel there is a big difference, however, because flying the aircraft at a slower approach speed requires mastery of the aircraft and often that is not achieved at 10-20 hours. The PTS requires minimum float for the soft field and minimum float is easier to achieve because the aircraft is already so slow.

I do agree with you that you should teach one way from the start. But as you well know not every student is the same. I was trying to recommend just another method (hold it off the r/w as long as possible w/ no power) of the millions out there that the CFI could suggest to the student to make the student think for themselves and begin to solve problems on their own

 

[IP076]

I still feel there is a big difference, however, because flying the aircraft at a slower approach speed requires mastery of the aircraft and often that is not achieved at 10-20 hours. The PTS requires minimum float for the soft field and minimum float is easier to achieve because the aircraft is already so slow.

You do realize we are talking about 4 knots? Most people at 10 hours are lucky to be able to maintain airspeed within 4 knots. C172SP Book speeds for a short field approach is 61 and normal is 65, correct? 61 knots is over 1.5 Vso. The safety margin there is more than enough to fly at 61 knots? You should not be anywhere near the stall during the landing apporach. I'd like to see someone explain why a short field is flown steeper and slower....actually, I wan't someone to explain why one should fly a normal landing approach shallower and faster? Why not make every landing a shortfield? Can you not do a short field and pass any checkride for Private or Commercial? I think most DE's would let the student do a short field and if he does it well, count it as a normal too. There doesn't have to be a difference.

What you say about minimum float easier to achieve because the airplane is flying slower is not technically correct. It seems correct, but it really depends on when one begins a power reduction, flare, transition, whatever....You could fly at 80 knots and still get no float if you start your transition earlier.... I guess my point being, you don't have to float, nor should you.

Anyways...this all makes for good discussion, and a good refresher for some of us who haven't practiced CFI'ing in a while!

 

[lancioair]

Instructor Writer

I'm the owner of a new web site: www.runningrotors.com
Airpalne and Helicopter Pilot.
The site talks mainly about helicopters but I,m going to have a all page with planes material. I'm looking for instructors as collaborators and writers. I accept any article or training material. pictures, suggestions, ideas. Look it up.

www.RunningRotors.com

 

[Cat Driver]

Good morning troops.

This is supposed to be about landings?

I am still waiting for someone to explain to me how you can accurately judge the height of the wheels above the runway just prior to touch down while you are looking at the far end of the runway.

It doesen't matter how perfect and satisfying your approach is you still have to be able to judge the height above the runway before the thing quits flying.

So can someone explain how you can look at the far end and still judge wheel height above the runway?

Humor me and explain this so I can understand the concept.
Cat Driver

 

[midlifeflyer]

I am still waiting for someone to explain to me how you can accurately judge the height of the wheels above the runway just prior to touch down while you are looking at the far end of the runway.

It doesen't matter how perfect and satisfying your approach is you still have to be able to judge the height above the runway before the thing quits flying.

So can someone explain how you can look at the far end and still judge wheel height above the runway?

You may be making an invalid assumption.

I don't teach or use "look at the far end of the runway" for a number of reasons (including that the end of the runway is usually blocked by the nose when certain airplanes are in the proper touchdown attitude).

But for those who do teach/use it, I doubt that they mean "look at the end of the runway to the exclusion of everything else." Knowing height above the ground involves a whole bunch of visual cues from sections of the runway to the surrounding ground, to buildings on the airport to looking down at the wheels in a high-wing to...

 

[rcsimpson]

Peripheral vision.

Humor me and explain this so I can understand the concept.
Cat Driver