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Taxes are killing us!

  • Thread starter Thread starter Dizel8
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Dizel8

Douglas metal
Joined
Feb 27, 2003
Posts
2,817
Tax on a typical Int'l flight:
$20.00 Airport Departure Tax
12.45 Airport Infrastructure Fee
$10.00 Airport Authority Fee
$ 7.00 Immigration User Fee
$ 3.10 Animal/Plant/Health Inspection Fee

Of course, on top of that, you have fuel tax and direct taxes in case you happen to make a profit. Must be good to be the goverment.

Read somwhere, that SWA makes about 4 times less than what the goverment makes on a SWA ticket.
 
Oh, I have been a proponent of that all along!

Easiest way to do it? Decrease the size of the goverment and stop wasting dollars all over the place.
 
I wanted to resist... but I'm weak.

The issue is not whether or not to cut taxes.

The U.S. has some of the lowest taxes rates in the industrialized world. Correspondingly, we have some of the lowest social services spending in the world as well. Despite Republican, Liberatarian and other conservative ranting, the U.S. government should not cut taxes further, but should rather gut and rebuild from the foundation the majority of the national government beaucracy.

Just like many, many corporations today, the government has become bloated with pencil-pushing, do-nothing middle managers who bleed precious fiscal resources from the budget. Time and time again, one can read about millions of dollars being allocated for a certain project and only a couple of hundred thousand actually benefiting the needy party or serving the purpose of the appropriation. Building leases, employee/labor costs and administrative needs (letterhead paper, desks, pens, post-it notes) tend to be sponges that soak up good portions of government funding.

However, being realistic, I know the government will not reform itself. Nepotism and political thank yous will continue to create an amosphere of more is better. While I don't have estimates or even rough figures, I would imagine that a major overhaul of 'middle and lower government' could potentially save billions of dollars of years. That money could then be directed to the actual services being provided rather than to those providing the service.

In any case, it's interesting, the American psyche. People moan and complain about 'outrageous' taxation, and then rant about rotting schools, decaying roads and poorly equipped emergency services and military units. 'Well, if we lower taxes, then the beaucracy won't have all that extra money to spend.' Not quite: the beaucracy, in its current state, will protect itself above all else. It's not a malicious, corrupt force out to rob the people blind; it's simply the nature of the beast.

Rather than playing with money, we need to, as I mentioned above, restructure the government. The reduction of the number of cabinet-level departments, the merging or irradication of agencies with overlapping juristicitions and a change in the fundamental way the government operates are just a few of the many reforms needed.

How do we achieve this? We either, as Thomas Jefferson theorized, have a revolution on the scale of the War for Independence OR the citizenry realize the gravity of the situation and elect both legislators and a president dedicated to these ends. Given those options, I expect the status quo to remain the status quo indefinitely.

*sigh*

So, given this, we can either cut taxes and further reduce our already embarassingly low social services, or just shut up and pay.
 
I think that I would be much more comfortable with an obvious 75% off my paychecks and then zero off my gas, baseball tickets, food, etc.

I'd be much more appreciative of knowing that what little money I got went to exactly the businesses and manufacturers of the goods and services involved, and paying for those things accordingly rather than being constanly blindsided by hidden taxes for everything I consume as an individual.
 
The U.S. has some of the lowest taxes rates in the industrialized world. Correspondingly, we have some of the lowest social services spending in the world as well. Despite Republican, Liberatarian and other conservative ranting, the U.S. government should not cut taxes further, but should rather gut and rebuild from the foundation the majority of the national government beaucracy.

I like both ideas. Cut taxes AND make government smaller.


Just like many, many corporations today, the government has become bloated with pencil-pushing, do-nothing middle managers who bleed precious fiscal resources from the budget.

What? And fire all of those affirmative action types? What will happen to our good intentions? We'll have to admit our games we played with hiring, forcing people to hire individuals who would never have been hired and almost can't be fired, were all wrong. Nay, nay I say. We can't do that!!!



In any case, it's interesting, the American psyche. People moan and complain about 'outrageous' taxation, and then rant about rotting schools, decaying roads and poorly equipped emergency services and military units.

I can find a few deteriorating schools in Philly, but to tell the truth, I also see very few kids in those schools who are interested in an education. It just isn't cool, and it's "acting white" on top of that. As far as "decaying roads," I see a lot of gleaming intestate highway paid by tax dollars that are taken out of my state, and are only returned to us if we play nice with the feds. We can build our own roads, thank you. We pay plenty for emergency services. If we want a great military, we have to turn away from school breakfast, lunch, dinner, weekend and midnight basketball, and a host of other failed do-gooder programs that reward poor choices and low performance and instead properly outfit and care for our soldiers.



So, given this, we can either cut taxes and further reduce our already embarassingly low social services, or just shut up and pay.

If we were a socialist state, with cradle to grave social services as an intent of our government, we might be embarassed. Instead, we are supposed to be a nation of rugged individualists. In fact, it's one of the main reasons for our greatness.

If someone is a european socialist, and thinks that everyone should be so heavily taxed as to provide housing, healthcare, and all the comforts of home for everyone that decides to nuzzle up to the governement teat, then we are not doing "enough," whatever that might be. If, however, we are going to continue to be great, we must stop rewarding poor choices and low performance.

Cut the taxes, and that will cause these bloated departments to wither and die.
 
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Make it a consumption tax. A straight 10%. Everyone pays. No consumption, no tax. A lot of consumption a lot of tax. The rich would therefore continue to pay the vast majority of taxes, and everyone could understand the method.
 
TB - I might actually pseudo-agree with you here. However, the gov't needs to make up its mind. Get smaller and cut taxes, or get bigger and raise taxes. Right now, we're getting bigger and cutting taxes...and this is with a Republican-dominated government. Like it or not, GWB has presided over an INCREASE in non-discretionary spending of 8% per year since he got into office and has not vetoed one major spending bill. So, we need to make a concerted effort in one direction or the other. Either let me keep my money and make all of my own choices about where I spend my money, or take my money and give me lots of cool $hit for it. We need to go one way or another. Right now, the government is, in essence, just spending the money it doesn't have because it's afraid to tax the people. We need the money regardless, and the borrowed money is only inflationary. So, we're getting taxed anyway.

So, moral of the story - either socialize stuff and jack up my taxes or liberalize the economy, cut taxes, and shrink the hell out of the government so they don't have the money to keep snooping on this board to see what a GWB hater I am. Gov't should be the defender only. Either way, I don't care. However, present-day policy is horse$hit. We're all gonna pay sooner or later in a collapsed currency (see: Argentina) and hyperinflation.

Start buying gold now...
 
TB - I might actually pseudo-agree with you here. However, the gov't needs to make up its mind. Get smaller and cut taxes, or get bigger and raise taxes. Right now, we're getting bigger and cutting taxes...and this is with a Republican-dominated government. Like it or not, GWB has presided over an INCREASE in non-discretionary spending of 8% per year since he got into office and has not vetoed one major spending bill.

I might agreee with you a little, too.

Government does indeed need to grow smaller, however, much of what we spent in the past four years is military and security-oriented spending, which should have bee done all through the nineties. For instance, if we don't like the intel we have, we need to recognize that it is because we have not properly funded intel. If we don't like the way children are learning, we need to recognize that the largest problems are social and cultural, not electronic or architectural.
 
I actually agree with Timebuilder. And, also with merikeyegro in that we need to cut spending AND taxes. We have the largest deficit on record deficit (a half trillion per year and a significant portion of GDP).

Yes, GWB has cut taxes, but taxes on airline tickets have increased! And we wonder why airlines are so unprofitable. Could it be because the tax rate on an airline ticket is 25 to 50 percent?

Hmmm. Yes!
 
>Only in America.......

>
> THE ANT AND THE GRASSHOPPER
>
> OLD VERSION:
>
> The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his
> house and laying up supplies for the winter.
>
> The grasshopper thinks he's a fool and laughs and dances and plays the
> summer away. Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed.
>
> The grasshopper has no food or shelter, so he dies out in the cold.
>
> MORAL OF THE STORY: Be responsible for yourself!
>
> MODERN VERSION:
>
> The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his
> house and laying up supplies for the winter.
>
> The grasshopper thinks he's a fool and laughs and dances and plays the
> summer away.
>
> Come winter, the shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and
> demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while
> others are cold and starving.
>
> CBS, NBC, and ABC show up to provide pictures of the shivering
> grasshopper next to a video of the ant in his comfortable home with a table filled
> with food.
>
> America is stunned by the sharp contrast. How can this be, that in a
> country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so?
>
> Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper, and everybody
> cries when they sing, "It's Not Easy Being Green."
>
> Jesse Jackson stages a demonstration in front of the ant's house where
> the news stations film the group singing, "We shall overcome." Jesse then
> has the group kneel down to pray to God for the grasshopper's sake.
>
> Tom Daschle & John Kerry exclaim in an interview with Peter Jennings
> that the ant has gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper, and both call
> for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his "fair share."
>
> Finally, the EEOC drafts the "Economic Equity and Anti-Grasshopper
> Act," retroactive to the beginning of the summer. The ant is fined for
> failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs and, having nothing left to
> pay his retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by the government.
>
> Hillary gets her old law firm to represent the grasshopper in a
> defamation suit against the ant, and the case is tried before a panel of federal
> judges that Bill appointed from a list of single-parent welfare recipients.
>
> The ant loses the case.
>
> The story ends as we see the grasshopper finishing up the last bits of
> the ant's food while the government house he is in, which just happens to
> be the ant's old house, crumbles around him because he doesn't maintain it.
>
> The ant has disappeared in the snow.
>
> The grasshopper is found dead in a drug related incident and the house,
> now abandoned, is taken over by a gang of spiders who terrorize the once
> peaceful neighborhood.
>
> MORAL OF THE STORY: Vote Republican
 
You wanna see the U.S. tax code change faster than presidential candidate positions? Just start making ALL Americans write a check for their entire tax bill every year! That should do it :mad:
 
BellyFlyer said:
You wanna see the U.S. tax code change faster than presidential candidate positions? Just start making ALL Americans write a check for their entire tax bill every year! That should do it :mad:

Good Idea:D
 
mooser said:
Vote Republican...
...it's easier than thinking.


(Sorry...knee-jerk reaction from a former Democrat. :D )
 
Sadly the Federal, State and Local Governments in this country have become a jobs program for the inherently lazy and stupid. Show me a competent Government Worker and I will show you 5 that would be living under an overpass without our largesse.

The beauty is they can't be fired, or incumbent politicians would have to begin enacting well thought out, useful legislation and selling it to their constituents. Sad to say, but we may well be to far down this road to stop it. Unless folks wake up, and begin voting libertarian, rather than for the two incumbent political parties, this process will never end.
 
Libertarian has its uses, but voting it in a time of war is nonsensical.
 
BellyFlyer said:
You wanna see the U.S. tax code change faster than presidential candidate positions? Just start making ALL Americans write a check for their entire tax bill every year! That should do it :mad:

Argee 100 percent. I've thought this for a long time. witholding makes it far too easy to to think of taxs as just another deduction, and to think of your take home as *your* share. On the other hand, if at the end of the year, each taxpayer had to write a check for 6, 8 10 12, thousand dollars or whatever, it would really sink in: Hey, this is a *big* chunk of my money, I could have bought a new 4 wheeler, remodeled the kitchen, sent the rugrat to a privete school, gone on a Safari, paid off the college loan ......whatever. I think people would look at taxes in a whole different light if they had to actually cough up the money out of their bank account at the end of the year.
 
Sadly the Federal, State and Local Governments in this country have become a jobs program for the inherently lazy and stupid.

Well said ... and I agree with you. Now, I'll just sit here and wait for the world to end, which it certainly must, any minute now. :D

I'm betting we could cut the Federal and State government workforces by 50% across the board, keeping only the competent and motivated, and we wouldn't see the slightest reduction in efficiency. Next up ... politician's pay. Fifty percent, across the board. From judges to the President. Politicians are there to SERVE ... not grab and run. If they are ethical, patriotic Americans prepared to serve THE PEOPLE, you won't hear 'em screaming about it. Next ... flat tax, clean out the IRS (a giant self-serving abortion if there ever was one). And lastly ... NO MORE MULTIPLE GENERATION WELFARE LEACHES! Keep WIC and child healthcare programs, but put a two-year limit on wellfare bennies, including government housing schemes. Two years to get on your feet, and if you don't stand up, yet you are able-bodied ... out ya go!

Whatever modest gains we make from this after the people get back whats rightfully theirs can be spread out among Police Officers, Teachers, and Flight Instructors.

When do we start?

:D

Minh
 
BellyFlyer said:
You wanna see the U.S. tax code change faster than presidential candidate positions? Just start making ALL Americans write a check for their entire tax bill every year! That should do it :mad:

I agree. However, then you're gonna have the people that spend the money instead of saving it for the "big" check at the end of the year. The end result will be increased taxes on those that are responsible and would actually follow through with it.

It sounds great on paper until you realize that people won't be responsible and actually pay when they're suppose to.
 
Nope. A libertarian would likely vote for someone that would yank us out of the stupid war that we're in. "We" are not really at war. We are attempting to keep the peace in Iraq and aren't having much luck. Terrorism should be fought, but this is not that. This is police action, much like Vietnam. Not really that different. The only difference is that GWB screwed this up faster than did LBJ.

TB - "Most" of our spending has not come in the form of security spending. Medicare comes to mind ($535 billion). Also, pretty much every other spending program has increased at a high rate (greater than 5% per year). The last Bush budget sought to "limit" discretionary spending INCREASES at 4% for 2005. That's not very Republican. That's three times the rate of inflation which, incidentally, is the result of all this extra borrowed money being slapped onto the economy.

We're not being taxed overtly, but we are being taxed covertly. Inflation is just a hidden tax that has managed to stay relatively low due to recession. I'd hate to see what will happen once things manage to turn around for the rest of us (not just the Dow and the Fortune 500), if they even can in the next few years. We're kinda screwed right now. Inflation could easily eat up our earnings. We, as the middle class, really get screwed in the deal. Anyone on this board NOT in debt for school, car, big house, credit card, etc. and in a relatively unstable job? The airlines aren't getting any better, the real estate market will crash at the first sign of significant rate increases, consumer debt is high, new jobs are not paying well (for instance, one United pilot loses his job - $150,000 - in favor of 3 at Chautauqua - $20,000), wage growth is negative, and government debt is high. These are not exactly healthy signs. I would argue that the small amount ($150 billion or so) going into the DHS isn't what's kicking up the deficits, although they don't help. The DHS actually, as a whole since consolidation, has seen a real-dollar drop in its budget. For all of Bush's rhetoric, he has actually cut some first-responder money and inspection money. So, I wouldn't say that this is the only reason. A lot of that money was already there in the Coast Guard, FEMA, etc.

Interesting situation. Back to work...
 

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