Talking with the PAX at a Frac.

[netjetwife]

That's a new one!

XCrew, my critics usually try to shame me off the board by suggesting that I'm neglecting my children and/or housework. Others hope to embarrass me into leaving. None have been successful. Thanks anyway, but I'm happy in this forum. What credibility I have here was gained through perseverance and articulation. It also helps to have an excellent source..

Fernando, our background in the AF must help explain my interest in my husband's career. The AF had a "two for one" attitude towards officers wives. Fighter squadrons are a tight knit community and families are an important part of the mission readiness. I'm not saying other aviation communities aren't much the same; I'm just sharing my experience and the reason that I'm comfortable talking to pilots. Add to that my strong convictions that the pilots must stand up for themselves and their families and you get an opinionated wife who's not afraid to stand on a "soap box" and cry foul when she sees something wrong.

PILOTS ARE PROFESSIONALS AND SHOULD BE COMPENSATED ACCORDINGLY

THE LIFESTYLE IS HARD ON FAMILIES SO IT MUST BE JUSTIFIED BY THE PAY

 

[SAEflyer]

Just once i'd love to see a thread stay on topic...once....haha who am i kidding

 

[GVFlyer]

Should you be thanked with a monetary gesture of appreciation, realize that it is for services above and beyond your duties as a pilot, and pocket it with a smile.

It is inappropriate and unprofessional to accept a tip when flying in the Western World. If you are flying someone from a society where it is a cultural imperative to grant gratuities such as the Saudis or the Sultan of Brunei, then it would show a lack of senstivity for the principals culture to refuse a gratuity.

GV

 

[netjetwife]

GVFlyer,what is your source for the opinion you are stating as a fact? I can tell you that I spent several hours doing an internet search on etiquette rules that govern tipping here in the U.S. and elsewhere in the Western World. Here is what I learned--one does not tip a pilot unless he/she has performed duties above and beyond flying the airplane. If a pax receives special attention from the flight crew such as help with the luggage, serving drinks, food, etc, and arranging ground transportation prior to arrival, then they have earned, and definitely do deserve, a tip, according to the authorities on the subject. As many frac pilots perform those, and similar services, for their pax, they would be exhibiting bad manners--acting unprofessionally, if you will---were they to shun a tip which had been offered as a token of appreciation.

I make it a personal rule not to post information, as being factual, that I'm unsure of. Hence, I'm standing by my post. Remember, it's the personal attention the pilots are tipped for--not flying the plane.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Back on topic for a second. At my last job (not fractional, but charter isn't all that different) we visited with the passengers when we could. As for getting them drinks, I always placed a cold bottle of water, a cup of ice and a napkin at each seat to be occupied prior to the pax arriving. I then offered them other drinks during my safety briefing. Once at cruise and assuming we had enough time, the captain or I would check on the passengers. Sometimes this just envolved turning around and asking them how the temperature was, but a lot of the time it envolved getting up, moving back and taking 5 minutes to talk with the passengers. One way or another we would communicate with the passengers during the flight.

 

[VVJM265]

Side Bar

Fernando, our background in the AF must help explain my interest in my husband's career. The AF had a "two for one" attitude towards officers wives. Fighter squadrons are a tight knit community and families are an important part of the mission readiness.

If that is so, then it's a far, far different situation than what we've seen in the Navy....

 

[Freight Dog]

I think it's more inappropriate that pilots are paid as little as they are in the Western World. I guess that's another debate altogether...

It is inappropriate and unprofessional to accept a tip when flying in the Western World. If you are flying someone from a society where it is a cultural imperative to grant gratuities such as the Saudis or the Sultan of Brunei, then it would show a lack of senstivity for the principals culture to refuse a gratuity.

GV

 

[LXJ31]

I'll buy GV's logic if he explains the difference between my boss dropping a $100 on me, saying "Go have a nice steak tonight" and at year's end when he drops a Christmas card in my in-box with a bonus?

For those in the service industry (waiters etc.) the prospect of a healthy tip is the incentive to perform their duty well. For a flight crew, the prospect of a tip carries no incentive; there is nothing I could or would do differently on a given trip regardless of who is on-board.

GV's qualifications indicate that he probably is compensated quite well for his work. But for some young FO in a Beechjet pulling in $25k a year...

 

[netjetwife]

If that is so, then it's a far, far different situation than what we've seen in the Navy....

Perhaps you're taking my post too literally. I was referring more to the social side of things and to the way the military squadrons take care of their own. Families are briefed during times of deployment and it is recognized throughout the military that the troops perform better when they know the families left behind are taken care of. Commanders wives are expected to be there for the wives junior to them. When it's an officer's turn to host a function, it's expected that his wife will assist him in making the arrangements. No one in the squadron questioned me when I booked a restaurant and chose a menu, so it seemed perfectly normal to me to call the NJ pilots' families in our area and suggest we all meet at a certain location on a date I chose. The former navy pilot in the group was not surprised to learn my husband was a retired AF officer. To him it explained my desire to meet the NJ families in our area. My own personal sense of outrage at the plight of frac families, explains the rest.

 

[GVFlyer]

To Insure Prompt Service (TIPS)

GVFlyer,what is your source for the opinion you are stating as a fact? I can tell you that I spent several hours doing an internet search on etiquette rules that govern tipping here in the U.S. and elsewhere in the Western World. Here is what I learned--one does not tip a pilot unless he/she has performed duties above and beyond flying the airplane. If a pax receives special attention from the flight crew such as help with the luggage, serving drinks, food, etc, and arranging ground transportation prior to arrival, then they have earned, and definitely do deserve, a tip, according to the authorities on the subject. As many frac pilots perform those, and similar services, for their pax, they would be exhibiting bad manners--acting unprofessionally, if you will---were they to shun a tip which had been offered as a token of appreciation.

I make it a personal rule not to post information, as being factual, that I'm unsure of. Hence, I'm standing by my post. Remember, it's the personal attention the pilots are tipped for--not flying the plane.

There are several levels at which to respond to your question. On one level I could facetiously say that the only difference between me and your husband is that I'm still doing what the military trained me to do. I was in the military VIP community for many years with domestic and overseas postings. I served my final six years at Andrews AFB. When I was in a military uniform no senior officer, politician, or foreign dignitary would have dreamed of offering me a gratuity. They respected me as the professional pilot and military officer that I was. I have never expected that to be any different in my civilian uniform.

On another level, at two of my subsequent positions the company Ops Manuals have specifically prohibited the acceptance of gratuities.

On a personal level, I consider myself to be a professional just as an airline captain is or as is a doctor or a lawyer. I would never consider trying to push an envelope with a tip enclosed under the reinforced cockpit door for the 777 captain who had just given me a smooth flight to Paris. Nor would I attempt to slip a Benjamin into the hand of a cruise ship captain at the completion of a particularly nice Caribbean cruise. I have also never considered tipping my doctor for a good surgical procedure or my dentist for a nice cap or my lawyer for executing a legal document professionally. I think they would be insulted.

Does NJA's Ops Manual address the subject of gratuities?

GV









~

 

[DO-82 driver]

GV.....our Ops Specs do not address the issue of tipping...RTS did that for us in several letters to the owners in years past explaining we were the highest paid in the industry. (Cough!!! Cough!!! Cough!!!)

Today, in some cases that's a diffrent story.

If offered a tip, I politely look at the person and say with a certain degree of conviction..."That's not necessary" If they insist....I gracious accept it and say...."Thank you very much".

Mind you...its not like we're getting tips everyday and since the ratification of the CBA I haven't been offered a tip. The times that I did receive a tip was usually in conjunction with going above and beyond OUTSIDE of the cockpit. Going out of my way to do something that wasn't clearly in my job description. Like grabbing a crew car and driving an owner to an airline terminal when no one else was available....stuff like that.

These people don't view us as a physicains, lawyers or other similiar professionals....They see us a limo drivers or some other service-industry provider.

If they saw us on par with a physician do you thing they would carry on like little brats when informed the plane is broke or TEB has a ground stop?

I don't particularly care how they view me....It means absolutely nothing to me. I am assigned a flight and I will do it to the best of my abilty regardless of who or what is in the cabin.

If I get a tip fine.....I take it and spilt it with my crew member.

 

[Going2Baja]

When I was in a military uniform no senior officer, politician, or foreign dignitary would have dreamed of offering me a gratuity. They respected me as the professional pilot and military officer that I was.
~

I bet you're a load of fun to fly with.

Baja.

 

[DO-82 driver]

Some people don't know how to hang up the uniform......

 

[Muddauber]

Some people don't know how to hang up the uniform......

I believe he said he was still wearing one...

Good post GV.


Muddy

 

[SlipperyPete]

netjetwife you are A HOOT! I tell ya, there's always entertainment somewhere on fltinfo.

 

[netjetwife]

quote=GVFlyer]..... I'm still doing what the military trained me to do. There are no F16s at NJA, so my husband works w/1108 for his challenge. When I was in a military uniform no senior officer, politician, or foreign dignitary would have dreamed of offering me a gratuity. Nor should they have as all additional duties were in your job description to begin with. I have never expected that to be any different in my civilian uniform. According to the etiquette experts, you should have. Your duties are clearly defined as a civilian pilot and are much more limited in scope compared to your role as a representative of the military.

On another level, at two of my subsequent positions the company Ops Manuals have specifically prohibited the acceptance of gratuities. They probably thought that pax wealthy enough to afford private flying would have "worldly" knowledge sufficient enough to determine for themselves when a tip was warranted. For companies that underpay their pilots, it does rather have a way of informing the pax that the pilots are not compensated at the professional standards they'd expect them to be. Just because it wasn't there, doesn't mean it isn't right.

On a personal level, I consider myself to be a professional just as an airline captain is or as is a doctor or a lawyer. Agreed, as are all frac pilots. You all deserve professional wages. I would never consider trying to push an envelope with a tip enclosed under the reinforced cockpit door for the 777 captain who had just given me a smooth flight to Paris. Correct decision as there were FAs paid to attend to the needs of the pax. Apples and oranges argument. Nor would I attempt to slip a Benjamin into the hand of a cruise ship captain at the completion of a particularly nice Caribbean cruise. Exactly. Same rule applies there, as well. I have also never considered tipping my doctor for a good surgical procedure or my dentist for a nice cap or my lawyer for executing a legal document professionally. I think they would be insulted.

I have no idea, but certainly they'd be surprised as tipping them for doing nothing but their job is not in accordance with society's rules. Pilots are not tipped when they have only flown the plane. Worldly pax tip pilots for the services rendered that go beyond flying the plane. Handling luggage, serving refreshments, taking care of pets, making ground transportation arrangements, etc., are the examples of services pilots may be tipped for by pax that appreciate the special attention.

Refusing to accept a token of appreciation sincerely given would be extremely rude and may cause embarrassment to the pax who only wished to express their thanks in a socially acceptable manner. You earned it. They know it. Smile and say "thank you".
NJW

 

[gutshotdraw]

GV,

Your posts are usually an accurate and sane voice of reason on this board but this time (I can't believe I'm typing this) DO-82 is correct. Years ago, or so the story goes, we had a greybeard with your mindset on tips. He was offered a tip from an appreciative client and repeatedly refused the tip in such a disdainful and rude fashion that the offended owner went right up the chain of command. It wasn't long thereafter that the letter to which DO-82 refers went out.

My policy, and the policy of most of our flight crews is to graciously decline the first offer of a tip and then politely accept when offered again (which they invariably do). Although tips are rare in our operations, they do occur and usually from the same, well-known clients. Any tips are always shared amongst the entire crew although some pilots insist the flight attendant take the entire gratuity.

I consider myself a white-collar professional and will perform my duties to the best of my abilities regardless of the possibility of a gratuity. Some of our clients are happy to show their appreciation to the flight crews and I am not about to insult them or their gesture.

 

[netjetwife]

GSD, thanks for sharing your experience. I had no personal knowledge of such an outcome, but could easily anticipate that very thing happening, given the attitude toward tipping that some here have expressed. I can't imagine any of the pilots expecting to be tipped, and assume they are only trying to please the pax, as you do. I see it as nothing but common sense and good manners to say "You're welcome" when one is thanked. Regardless of the form that may take.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

Any tips are always shared amongst the entire crew although some pilots insist the flight attendant take the entire gratuity.

Maybe you should tell the F.A.'s that. I cant tell you the times I've been in the back slinging bags out the door, look through the cabin and see Mr. "Big Bucks" slide sweetie a handful of greenbacks; only to watch her pocket the wad and never tell me or the Captain a thing about it.

It doesnt make me mad, I agree they deserve it for all the 'service' stuff. HOWEVER... dont expect me to post flight, vaccum, do the head liner, take the trash out, help restock and drag your 100 pd. bag into the FBO after watching you pull a fast one!

Just my .02cents

 

[gutshotdraw]

BV,

I know it happens from time to time but I've never unequivocally busted an FA red-handed. I'd like to think it isn't a common thing.