Tab

[MelbourneMatt]

They log it as PIC. Yes, logging turbine time in the King Air, while sitting in the left seat as a Safety Pilot. The instructor is sitting behind, in a jumpseat. Wow, is that safe. I wonder if the new students really know that the 100hrs they are paying for is really only 50, oh yeah, plus the 50 as safety pilot. I think we can sum it up as fraud, and maybe a couple of other words for our friends at TAB.

You are kind of missing the point...

Part 121 operations fly a two crew environment, so TAB teaches all aspects of the King Air using Two Crew. The "Safety Pilot" doesn't just sit there and watch the ground go by (if he can see it from 20,000 feet ) but has lots of work to do, just like in any Part 121 operation...ATC, navigation, check lists, and so forth.

Two crew isn't easy. Learning callouts and the various functional roles between flying and non-flying pilot takes some time to get used to. I am glad I am learning it here instead of during my Airline sim ride.

Originally posted by Diesel
It's a shame that they don't have cfi's. Isn't tab trying to teach in those planes? Who is doing the teaching when it comes to stalls, emer descents stuff like that?

Wow, no one is real concerned with finding the facts or actually reading the replies around here, huh? The post above said that the Captains may not be a CFI. There are lots of CFI's at TAB that teach in the King Air. All the initial training (stalls, steep turns and so forth) are done with CFI's, but why would that be a requirement for the LOFT's? Are you saying that Airline Captains aren't qualified to teach what they do on a regular basis?

And yes, I am a student at TAB. I picked this school after talking to several friends who fly for the majors and visiting FlightSafety, FIT and PanAm. I'll start interviewing with the Regional's this year, not after working for 3-5 years as a CFI.

As to cost...no career in aviation is cheap. Embry Riddle is ~$20K per year x 4 = $80K and you come out with roughly 400hrs. The same cost and hours as TAB. There are big differences, of course and I am not trying to say TAB is better than ER or vice versa...they are different products for different audiences.

 

[H8U]

Wow, interviewing with the regionals already! Tell us which regionals, please........

 

[Diesel]

Enlighten us please on what regional? I've got a buddy with 1500hrs and he's trying like crazy.

Not to break your nuts, but how are you going to explain the safety pilot roll to an interviewer as you logging the hours.

If i remember United wanted only hours as PIC, or Aircraft Commander, or whover signed for the plane itself. I don't think it mention's anything about Safety pilot

If you want you can pm me.

 

[bobbysamd]

Paying another TAB

I'll start interviewing with the Regional's this year, not after working for 3-5 years as a CFI.

While I would not have made the choice of school that you made, you've made your choice and I wish you well with it.

However, don't count your chickens before they hatch. Not that many regionals are interviewing right now. Ask some of your regional airline buds if you don't believe it. And, therein, lies the rub with a place like TAB (and, to be fair about it, I'll throw in a program I like, MAPD). When you leave such a program, unless you absolutely and without delay can segue to class, and without a CFI, you'll have trouble finding work and staying current. Meaning, your 100 hours of turbine multi currency will go stale fast. Not that many non-TAB-affiliated companies hire low-time pilots with 100 hours of Kingair time (I won't analyze the split between real PIC/sole manipulator and PIC/safety pilot here.).

I don't know what you're defining as "this year," but there's less than two months left in CY 2002. Hopefully, you'll get your interview quickly. But, as others have opined, don't hold your breath with so many more highly-qualified and experienced pilots with whom you must compete.

Once again, best of luck. But, don't be surprised if you find yourself having to get a CFI so you can work (Based on your profile, I assume you don't have it now.).

 

[MelbourneMatt]

Enlighten us please on what regional? I've got a buddy with 1500hrs and he's trying like crazy.

Not to break your nuts, but how are you going to explain the safety pilot roll to an interviewer as you logging the hours.

If i remember United wanted only hours as PIC, or Aircraft Commander, or whover signed for the plane itself. I don't think it mention's anything about Safety pilot

If you want you can pm me.

Don't worry about it! I can take it! (puts on flame suit)

I think the stumbling block is the term "Safety Pilot". When I am the FP, I am PIC, right? Sure. When I am the NFP, I am SIC, right? Sure. There is no "safety pilot" in a Two Crew world.

My name is on the Flight Plan and the Dispatch. The Instructor is there to provide training and for insurance requirements.

United is a major, much higher requirements than a regional/commuter. And I think you are right, United's published minimums are 5000TT, 1500PIC. Good thing I am not trying to go from TAB to United!

As for which regional, we just had some folks interview with Great Lakes (all had less than 500TT) and three get offered jobs flying freight out of Detroit (I forget the company - they fly ATR's, 1900's and DC-9's). I am staying in Florida, so as soon as my Commercial is done (January), I start with a Part 135 service.

I don't believe in bridge programs...I am glad they work for some folks, but I specifically picked TAB because they offer there graduates to everybody.

BTW- what kind of hours does your buddy have? How much multi? Any turbine?

 

[MelbourneMatt]

bobbysamd you are absoultely correct in your assessment of the timing. And you are right, if I didn't already have something waiting for me, I would go and get my CFI (or just keep working as a Computer Guy) to make $$$ until I got a spot somewhere.

And I won't be "done" (Commercial-Multi) until January, so I didn't mean to imply that I was going to have a job before January 1st! I was just trying to point out that I will have the skills and a fighting shot at any commuter job years earlier than if I stuck to the traditional route (like ER or FlightSafety).

 

[eyelevelflyer]

What's fraudulent about getting what you pay for? Yeah, it's not cheap, but if you attend TAB you get your 100 hrs PIC in the King Air as advertised. Look at previous comments on another thread about PIC time as Safety Observer. The FAA has put out their interpretation of it - the FAA considers it 100%, totally, completely, unquestionably to be PIC time. Yes, the students know what they're paying for and what they're getting. Where's the fraud????

What's unsafe about two fully qualified, ME rated pilots flying together in a King Air? eyelevelflyer, you say in your profile that you have an ME rating. I hope you don't have such a lack of confidence in your ability that you couldn't fly a King Air as PIC. The guys/gals I fly with at TAB are great pilots, and I have no qualm at all about sitting in the back while they are flying on cross country flights. They've had 40 or 50 hours of King Air simulator time, and they've also gone through 11 hours of King Air training 1-on-1 with an instructor in a cockpit seat getting completely checked out in the King Air doing stalls, slow flight, steep turns, SE work (including SSE landings), pressurization failure (emergency descents), etc.

When we start doing the cross country flying, I'm in the cockpit for about .1 for takeoff and initial climbout, and about .1 for approach and landing. It's purely for insurance purposes. During climbout, I get in the back and monitor the operation while the two pilots undergoing training work together in a multi-crew/CRM operation. These guys/gals are both ME qualified pilots and there is absolutely nothing unsafe about it at all. There is no training going on for any rating. The pilots are already fully qualified to do what they are doing - that's why they log PIC time.

Nothing fraudulent, nothing unsafe.

BTW, what are some of the "other words for our friends at TAB"? I work there part-time when I'm not flying for Delta, and I'd like to know what you have to say to me.

TriDriver Bob

TAB tells student's they get 200TT for one of their programs. You get 100 in the sim, not loggable as flight time. Fraud 1, next they say 100 in the King Air, they don't say 50 as PIC and 50 as PIC Safety Pilot. Fraud 2. Yes legal, but ethical? Come on, they are mostly new student's that do not know and are not told the truth.

Now, for our friend Matt, I am sure your future is bright. Oh yeah, sit down for this. They will tell you anything to get you to PFT upfront. Take a look around, places do not hire pilots with less than 500TT. So do not set your career clock on that interview with a Regional. And 135, check your reg's and do not forget the insurance minimum's.

Now, TriDriver. You are blessed with a lot of experience, but you are EMPLOYED by TAB, so your views are swayed. You should be running the place, it would be a great improvement.

One last bit of advice for TAB student's, check your CFI's currency. The latest is that they had one doing the training with an expired CFI. True but oh so sad.

 

[Diesel]

I think the stumbling block is the term "Safety Pilot". When I am the FP, I am PIC, right? Sure. When I am the NFP, I am SIC, right? Sure. There is no "safety pilot" in a Two Crew world.

WHOAH now you are logging it as SIC? Man please don't do that. The interviewers will eat you alive.

500 tt is min req for single engine vfr 135. Those days are looooong gone. Insurance requirments have gone through the roof.

Most operators won't take you with anything less than 1200 hrs for 135 IFR mins. Anything less than that and they are sticking you in the right seat saying hey you can log it. Suuuuurrre. But you might pay for it later or now if the 135 operator is like that.

Be very careful of 135 florida operators. Tab used to be one for example. Move from vrb to deland and all of a sudden it's differen company advertising in Flying.

Watch your 6. That's experience talking. not to patronize but everything you hear is not true in flying. Especially when it comes to job offers.

 

[AZaviator]

As to cost...no career in aviation is cheap. Embry Riddle is ~$20K per year x 4 = $80K and you come out with roughly 400hrs. The same cost and hours as TAB.

How much is the Tab program anyways? Please tell me its not $80k.

 

[bobbysamd]

A bird in the hand . . . .

bobbysamd If I didn't already have something waiting for me . . . . .

I'm confused. What do you have waiting for you? In other words, what makes you so sure that you have an interview and/or job waiting for you? I assume you mean a commuter job. Once more, I wouldn't be so sure, given hiring these days . . . .

I was just trying to point out that I will have the skills and a fighting shot at any commuter job years earlier than if I stuck to the traditional route (like ER or FlightSafety).

I dunno about that. I seriously doubt that TAB is guaranteeing anyone interviews these days. Further, let's say TAB comes through and gets you an "interview." Not everyone who is interviewed gets hired. Take it from me; I'm an expert on that subject. Finally, face it, your primary competition, i.e., those who've taken the traditional route to build experience and over whom you believe you have an advantage, have more flight experience than you. I would say, typically, over 1000 total and, at the least, 200 of multi PIC. Now, maybe none of that is in a Kingair at FL200, but the variety makes up for it. Flight training isn't strictly about teaching in the pattern; flight instructors take their instrument students on IFR cross-countries and file and shoot approaches on clearances. They're pulling engines and shutting them down in flight with their multi students. Maybe they haven't received some of the LOFT you obtain at TAB but experience instructing in the real world of aviation compensates for it well.

There's a lot to be said about building experience through flight instructing.

 

[kell17]

I graduated from TAB in May of '02, and I am almost finished training in the J41 at ACA. Here are some of my opinions about the training program at TAB Express:

1. The training is outstanding.

2. The instructors are the best you can find anywhere. My primary instructor was a 737 FO from Delta. He had flown the Saab 340, the Brasilia and the CRJ at Comair. He was an awesome instructor, and a great mentor. I also had the privilege of flying some sim periods with TriDriver Bob. The instructors at TAB are experienced airline pilots. They know what qualities make successful first officers.

3. The training will set you up for success at a regional airline -- especially for flying turboprops. They now have a Beech 1900 sim at TAB (didn't have it when I was there). While the sim training isn't going to help you get an interview from people focused on total time, it will make you a much better pilot.

4. 500 hour graduates from TAB's program can make very successful regional airline FOs. Not every pilot will succeed in a results-based, fast paced, intensive training program like the one offered at TAB, but if you are extremely motivated and willing to work your butt off while you are there, you can leave the program ready to go to the regionals.

5. The school is expensive.

6. Upon graduation, there are no guarantees for employment. Two years ago TAB graduates would have been getting hired...right now...jobs are extremely tough to come by. TAB is a new school. As the reputation of the school grows, more doors will open with regional airlines. I know the pilots TAB sent to Colgan last spring have done really well. Some TAB graduates have left the school and gotten their CFIs...some others have left and flown 135...the lucky ones have gotten jobs with regionals.

When I was exploring the best routes to the regionals, I was frustrated by the fact there isn't a set in stone route to get there. It isn't like becoming a doctor or a lawyer...it seems like no two pilots have taken the same route to the regionals.

TAB is a viable route.

The lucky pilots from TAB have made it to the regionals in six months. When choosing a route to go, consider the timeline to get there. Getting to the regional a year early can mean an extra year of pay at a high seniority rate at the end of your career. That can work out to be a considerable amount of money. Becoming a CFI is certainly a great route to go, but right now I have heard there is a glut of CFIs out there...many don't have the student load they had hope for, and most are looking at at least two years of instructing before they can get hired by the regionals.

If anyone has any questions regarding the program at TAB, feel free to send me a PM. I will give you an honest answer, and I might be able to help you decide if the program is right for you.

 

[172driver]

Tab may be a great option for you kell...but i see that you are sitting at 1200TT. Big difference between you (an experienced pilot building some turbine time) and melbourne matt (120 hrs), the more typical Tab student.

Can somebody please tell me who the regionals are (or 135 operators) that will hire a freshly minted commercial pilot with 250TT? 500 TT? Notice I didn't say interview but HIRE! Good luck. I'm sure people can be properly trained for the right seat in less than 500 hrs but that's not really the point. Bottom line is there is no right seat for you. I don't care if you have 100 hrs of safety pilot time in the space shuttle...it ain't gonna happen.

I really have nothing against Tab but for people to assert that there are jobs out there for a 250-500 hr pilot in this market is ridiculous. Prove it please.

Will someone please answer these questions for me? If you go from zero time to Tab graduate, how many hrs do you have? In what? How much money did you spend? Let's shed a little light on whether or not it's a good deal for the aviation newbie...

 

[AOPAPILOT]

After reading the latest on TAB, how will the former TAB student explain the 100 hours of King Air time with no landings or departures. The first thing the interview CAP will look at is the totals. He/she will smell a rat in all this and the student will be in a world of hurt. How will the student cover his 6? What training for the interview is given at TAB?

 

[Diesel]

gulfstream4ever paid so he knows how it feels to pay for turbine time and then leave the program.

AOPAPILOT that is an interesting point about having no landings or takeoffs. I suspect you mean by the safetypilot. Thats a good point. I remember a pilot who was logging only landings and the FAA said he was out of currency because he hadn't logged any takeoff's. Fine reading of the REg's sure is but it's the FAA.

I'll have to see what another FSDO outside of Florida thinks about safetypilot logging time towards currency. Because that's what you are basically doing. Saying to the interviewer that you have currency because you logged the time as a safety pilot. I'm not sure a FSDO would agree with that view.

I have to say that instructing does have more benefits than you can imagine. While my instruction was very limited I've found myself at a disadvantage to those that instructed. They know how to read people and know how pose questions or give advice in the cockpit.

My wife did a lot of instructing and her skills of communication are excellent.

Don't downplay instructing. There are a lot of valuable lessons there.

 

[bertengineer]

Originally posted by
The military turns 25 year olds loose in P-3's, C-130's, KC-135's etc. as aircraft commanders with less than 900 hours total flight time and they do a heck of a job.

This is because these types of planes have flight engineers that back up the new guy. I know that my 5600 hrs as FE on a C-130 helped keep us alive in more that one situation. That is as a Marine Corps FE, we do the work and we fly on them.