Tab

[eyelevelflyer]

They log it as PIC. Yes, logging turbine time in the King Air, while sitting in the left seat as a Safety Pilot. The instructor is sitting be hind, in a jumpseat. Wow, is that safe. I wonder if the new students really know that the 100hrs they are paying for is really only 50, oh yeah, plus the 50 as safety pilot. I think we can sum it up as fraud, and maybe a couple of other words for our friends at TAB.

 

[TriDriver]

They log it as PIC. Yes, logging turbine time in the King Air, while sitting in the left seat as a Safety Pilot. The instructor is sitting be hind, in a jumpseat. Wow, is that safe. I wonder if the new students really know that the 100hrs they are paying for is really only 50, oh yeah, plus the 50 as safety pilot. I think we can sum it up as fraud, and maybe a couple of other words for our friends at TAB.

What's fraudulent about getting what you pay for? Yeah, it's not cheap, but if you attend TAB you get your 100 hrs PIC in the King Air as advertised. Look at previous comments on another thread about PIC time as Safety Observer. The FAA has put out their interpretation of it - the FAA considers it 100%, totally, completely, unquestionably to be PIC time. Yes, the students know what they're paying for and what they're getting. Where's the fraud????

What's unsafe about two fully qualified, ME rated pilots flying together in a King Air? eyelevelflyer, you say in your profile that you have an ME rating. I hope you don't have such a lack of confidence in your ability that you couldn't fly a King Air as PIC. The guys/gals I fly with at TAB are great pilots, and I have no qualm at all about sitting in the back while they are flying on cross country flights. They've had 40 or 50 hours of King Air simulator time, and they've also gone through 11 hours of King Air training 1-on-1 with an instructor in a cockpit seat getting completely checked out in the King Air doing stalls, slow flight, steep turns, SE work (including SSE landings), pressurization failure (emergency descents), etc.

When we start doing the cross country flying, I'm in the cockpit for about .1 for takeoff and initial climbout, and about .1 for approach and landing. It's purely for insurance purposes. During climbout, I get in the back and monitor the operation while the two pilots undergoing training work together in a multi-crew/CRM operation. These guys/gals are both ME qualified pilots and there is absolutely nothing unsafe about it at all. There is no training going on for any rating. The pilots are already fully qualified to do what they are doing - that's why they log PIC time.

Nothing fraudulent, nothing unsafe.

BTW, what are some of the "other words for our friends at TAB"? I work there part-time when I'm not flying for Delta, and I'd like to know what you have to say to me.

TriDriver Bob

 

[Diesel]

more questions

Here's a question. Who actually signs for the airplane? That is what the real question is. Such as who is the aircraft commander.

Also is TriDriver logging the time in the back ?

Sure they have a safetypilot but i'm not sure interviewers would see that time as PIC.

If I remember durining interviewing if the time was questionable we would then ask, "who signed for the plane?" Not just sole manipulator of the controls.

Jessica Dubroff (sp?) was regarded as the pilot of the plane when it crashed by the news. The ultimate authority rested with the instructor though. She was just holding the controls at the time.

How do you do a emergency descent with the superchargers removed? Is the plane pressurized in the first place to begin with? I know king air's are but those early model king airs have superchargers, 65-90.a-90, and early b-90's up to serial number lj-380 or so.

Still maintaining those superchargers?

 

[TriDriver]

"Here's a question. Who actually signs for the airplane?"
The pilots undergoing training at TAB file the flight plan, and their name goes on the flight plan. They are ME/Instrument rated, they file the flight plan and fly the airplane.

"Also is TriDriver logging the time in the back ?"
No. I don't need to build time - I've got a major airline job. All the airline, or retired airline pilots, that do the IOE/LOFT training are airline pilots, and may not even have a CFI or an MEI. They don't need to log flight time. They get paid for the total time of the flight, and that's all that counts. I've been over this before, but when you get with an airline and fly intenationally, you do a lot of sitting in the back in a rest facility during a flight, but all you care about is getting paid for it. You'll do a bunch of deadheading, and I hope your contract has you getting paid for it. Company check airmen and FAA check pilots sit in the jumpseat to give crew evaluations, and they are getting paid for it. How they log it is up to them - they've already got the job.

"Sure they have a safetypilot but i'm not sure interviewers would see that time as PIC."
All the pilots undergoing training at TAB know what they're getting and how to talk about it in an interview.

"Still maintaining those superchargers?" Yes.

The offer to come and visit is still open. After we do some aerobatics we'll go visit TAB, unless that would make you sick.

TriDriver

 

[Diesel]

Now if the pilots are filing the flight plans how does that work with insurance? Who does the insurance think is flying the plane. The question is because I don't know of any insurance company that would pay out on a 50hr king air pilot flying those planes.

All the airline, or retired airline pilots, that do the IOE/LOFT training are airline pilots, and may not even have a CFI or an MEI

It's a shame that they don't have cfi's. Isn't tab trying to teach in those planes? Who is doing the teaching when it comes to stalls, emer descents stuff like that?

All the pilots undergoing training at TAB know what they're getting and how to talk about it in an interview.

So what does that mean? They know what to say at an interview such as here is the company line?

I'll pass on the offer, i've allready seen them on the ramp.

 

[MelbourneMatt]

They log it as PIC. Yes, logging turbine time in the King Air, while sitting in the left seat as a Safety Pilot. The instructor is sitting behind, in a jumpseat. Wow, is that safe. I wonder if the new students really know that the 100hrs they are paying for is really only 50, oh yeah, plus the 50 as safety pilot. I think we can sum it up as fraud, and maybe a couple of other words for our friends at TAB.

You are kind of missing the point...

Part 121 operations fly a two crew environment, so TAB teaches all aspects of the King Air using Two Crew. The "Safety Pilot" doesn't just sit there and watch the ground go by (if he can see it from 20,000 feet ) but has lots of work to do, just like in any Part 121 operation...ATC, navigation, check lists, and so forth.

Two crew isn't easy. Learning callouts and the various functional roles between flying and non-flying pilot takes some time to get used to. I am glad I am learning it here instead of during my Airline sim ride.

Originally posted by Diesel
It's a shame that they don't have cfi's. Isn't tab trying to teach in those planes? Who is doing the teaching when it comes to stalls, emer descents stuff like that?

Wow, no one is real concerned with finding the facts or actually reading the replies around here, huh? The post above said that the Captains may not be a CFI. There are lots of CFI's at TAB that teach in the King Air. All the initial training (stalls, steep turns and so forth) are done with CFI's, but why would that be a requirement for the LOFT's? Are you saying that Airline Captains aren't qualified to teach what they do on a regular basis?

And yes, I am a student at TAB. I picked this school after talking to several friends who fly for the majors and visiting FlightSafety, FIT and PanAm. I'll start interviewing with the Regional's this year, not after working for 3-5 years as a CFI.

As to cost...no career in aviation is cheap. Embry Riddle is ~$20K per year x 4 = $80K and you come out with roughly 400hrs. The same cost and hours as TAB. There are big differences, of course and I am not trying to say TAB is better than ER or vice versa...they are different products for different audiences.

 

[H8U]

Wow, interviewing with the regionals already! Tell us which regionals, please........

 

[Diesel]

Enlighten us please on what regional? I've got a buddy with 1500hrs and he's trying like crazy.

Not to break your nuts, but how are you going to explain the safety pilot roll to an interviewer as you logging the hours.

If i remember United wanted only hours as PIC, or Aircraft Commander, or whover signed for the plane itself. I don't think it mention's anything about Safety pilot

If you want you can pm me.

 

[bobbysamd]

Paying another TAB

I'll start interviewing with the Regional's this year, not after working for 3-5 years as a CFI.

While I would not have made the choice of school that you made, you've made your choice and I wish you well with it.

However, don't count your chickens before they hatch. Not that many regionals are interviewing right now. Ask some of your regional airline buds if you don't believe it. And, therein, lies the rub with a place like TAB (and, to be fair about it, I'll throw in a program I like, MAPD). When you leave such a program, unless you absolutely and without delay can segue to class, and without a CFI, you'll have trouble finding work and staying current. Meaning, your 100 hours of turbine multi currency will go stale fast. Not that many non-TAB-affiliated companies hire low-time pilots with 100 hours of Kingair time (I won't analyze the split between real PIC/sole manipulator and PIC/safety pilot here.).

I don't know what you're defining as "this year," but there's less than two months left in CY 2002. Hopefully, you'll get your interview quickly. But, as others have opined, don't hold your breath with so many more highly-qualified and experienced pilots with whom you must compete.

Once again, best of luck. But, don't be surprised if you find yourself having to get a CFI so you can work (Based on your profile, I assume you don't have it now.).

 

[MelbourneMatt]

Enlighten us please on what regional? I've got a buddy with 1500hrs and he's trying like crazy.

Not to break your nuts, but how are you going to explain the safety pilot roll to an interviewer as you logging the hours.

If i remember United wanted only hours as PIC, or Aircraft Commander, or whover signed for the plane itself. I don't think it mention's anything about Safety pilot

If you want you can pm me.

Don't worry about it! I can take it! (puts on flame suit)

I think the stumbling block is the term "Safety Pilot". When I am the FP, I am PIC, right? Sure. When I am the NFP, I am SIC, right? Sure. There is no "safety pilot" in a Two Crew world.

My name is on the Flight Plan and the Dispatch. The Instructor is there to provide training and for insurance requirements.

United is a major, much higher requirements than a regional/commuter. And I think you are right, United's published minimums are 5000TT, 1500PIC. Good thing I am not trying to go from TAB to United!

As for which regional, we just had some folks interview with Great Lakes (all had less than 500TT) and three get offered jobs flying freight out of Detroit (I forget the company - they fly ATR's, 1900's and DC-9's). I am staying in Florida, so as soon as my Commercial is done (January), I start with a Part 135 service.

I don't believe in bridge programs...I am glad they work for some folks, but I specifically picked TAB because they offer there graduates to everybody.

BTW- what kind of hours does your buddy have? How much multi? Any turbine?