Tab

[MelbourneMatt]

bobbysamd you are absoultely correct in your assessment of the timing. And you are right, if I didn't already have something waiting for me, I would go and get my CFI (or just keep working as a Computer Guy) to make $$$ until I got a spot somewhere.

And I won't be "done" (Commercial-Multi) until January, so I didn't mean to imply that I was going to have a job before January 1st! I was just trying to point out that I will have the skills and a fighting shot at any commuter job years earlier than if I stuck to the traditional route (like ER or FlightSafety).

 

[eyelevelflyer]

What's fraudulent about getting what you pay for? Yeah, it's not cheap, but if you attend TAB you get your 100 hrs PIC in the King Air as advertised. Look at previous comments on another thread about PIC time as Safety Observer. The FAA has put out their interpretation of it - the FAA considers it 100%, totally, completely, unquestionably to be PIC time. Yes, the students know what they're paying for and what they're getting. Where's the fraud????

What's unsafe about two fully qualified, ME rated pilots flying together in a King Air? eyelevelflyer, you say in your profile that you have an ME rating. I hope you don't have such a lack of confidence in your ability that you couldn't fly a King Air as PIC. The guys/gals I fly with at TAB are great pilots, and I have no qualm at all about sitting in the back while they are flying on cross country flights. They've had 40 or 50 hours of King Air simulator time, and they've also gone through 11 hours of King Air training 1-on-1 with an instructor in a cockpit seat getting completely checked out in the King Air doing stalls, slow flight, steep turns, SE work (including SSE landings), pressurization failure (emergency descents), etc.

When we start doing the cross country flying, I'm in the cockpit for about .1 for takeoff and initial climbout, and about .1 for approach and landing. It's purely for insurance purposes. During climbout, I get in the back and monitor the operation while the two pilots undergoing training work together in a multi-crew/CRM operation. These guys/gals are both ME qualified pilots and there is absolutely nothing unsafe about it at all. There is no training going on for any rating. The pilots are already fully qualified to do what they are doing - that's why they log PIC time.

Nothing fraudulent, nothing unsafe.

BTW, what are some of the "other words for our friends at TAB"? I work there part-time when I'm not flying for Delta, and I'd like to know what you have to say to me.

TriDriver Bob

TAB tells student's they get 200TT for one of their programs. You get 100 in the sim, not loggable as flight time. Fraud 1, next they say 100 in the King Air, they don't say 50 as PIC and 50 as PIC Safety Pilot. Fraud 2. Yes legal, but ethical? Come on, they are mostly new student's that do not know and are not told the truth.

Now, for our friend Matt, I am sure your future is bright. Oh yeah, sit down for this. They will tell you anything to get you to PFT upfront. Take a look around, places do not hire pilots with less than 500TT. So do not set your career clock on that interview with a Regional. And 135, check your reg's and do not forget the insurance minimum's.

Now, TriDriver. You are blessed with a lot of experience, but you are EMPLOYED by TAB, so your views are swayed. You should be running the place, it would be a great improvement.

One last bit of advice for TAB student's, check your CFI's currency. The latest is that they had one doing the training with an expired CFI. True but oh so sad.

 

[Diesel]

I think the stumbling block is the term "Safety Pilot". When I am the FP, I am PIC, right? Sure. When I am the NFP, I am SIC, right? Sure. There is no "safety pilot" in a Two Crew world.

WHOAH now you are logging it as SIC? Man please don't do that. The interviewers will eat you alive.

500 tt is min req for single engine vfr 135. Those days are looooong gone. Insurance requirments have gone through the roof.

Most operators won't take you with anything less than 1200 hrs for 135 IFR mins. Anything less than that and they are sticking you in the right seat saying hey you can log it. Suuuuurrre. But you might pay for it later or now if the 135 operator is like that.

Be very careful of 135 florida operators. Tab used to be one for example. Move from vrb to deland and all of a sudden it's differen company advertising in Flying.

Watch your 6. That's experience talking. not to patronize but everything you hear is not true in flying. Especially when it comes to job offers.

 

[AZaviator]

As to cost...no career in aviation is cheap. Embry Riddle is ~$20K per year x 4 = $80K and you come out with roughly 400hrs. The same cost and hours as TAB.

How much is the Tab program anyways? Please tell me its not $80k.

 

[bobbysamd]

A bird in the hand . . . .

bobbysamd If I didn't already have something waiting for me . . . . .

I'm confused. What do you have waiting for you? In other words, what makes you so sure that you have an interview and/or job waiting for you? I assume you mean a commuter job. Once more, I wouldn't be so sure, given hiring these days . . . .

I was just trying to point out that I will have the skills and a fighting shot at any commuter job years earlier than if I stuck to the traditional route (like ER or FlightSafety).

I dunno about that. I seriously doubt that TAB is guaranteeing anyone interviews these days. Further, let's say TAB comes through and gets you an "interview." Not everyone who is interviewed gets hired. Take it from me; I'm an expert on that subject. Finally, face it, your primary competition, i.e., those who've taken the traditional route to build experience and over whom you believe you have an advantage, have more flight experience than you. I would say, typically, over 1000 total and, at the least, 200 of multi PIC. Now, maybe none of that is in a Kingair at FL200, but the variety makes up for it. Flight training isn't strictly about teaching in the pattern; flight instructors take their instrument students on IFR cross-countries and file and shoot approaches on clearances. They're pulling engines and shutting them down in flight with their multi students. Maybe they haven't received some of the LOFT you obtain at TAB but experience instructing in the real world of aviation compensates for it well.

There's a lot to be said about building experience through flight instructing.

 

[kell17]

I graduated from TAB in May of '02, and I am almost finished training in the J41 at ACA. Here are some of my opinions about the training program at TAB Express:

1. The training is outstanding.

2. The instructors are the best you can find anywhere. My primary instructor was a 737 FO from Delta. He had flown the Saab 340, the Brasilia and the CRJ at Comair. He was an awesome instructor, and a great mentor. I also had the privilege of flying some sim periods with TriDriver Bob. The instructors at TAB are experienced airline pilots. They know what qualities make successful first officers.

3. The training will set you up for success at a regional airline -- especially for flying turboprops. They now have a Beech 1900 sim at TAB (didn't have it when I was there). While the sim training isn't going to help you get an interview from people focused on total time, it will make you a much better pilot.

4. 500 hour graduates from TAB's program can make very successful regional airline FOs. Not every pilot will succeed in a results-based, fast paced, intensive training program like the one offered at TAB, but if you are extremely motivated and willing to work your butt off while you are there, you can leave the program ready to go to the regionals.

5. The school is expensive.

6. Upon graduation, there are no guarantees for employment. Two years ago TAB graduates would have been getting hired...right now...jobs are extremely tough to come by. TAB is a new school. As the reputation of the school grows, more doors will open with regional airlines. I know the pilots TAB sent to Colgan last spring have done really well. Some TAB graduates have left the school and gotten their CFIs...some others have left and flown 135...the lucky ones have gotten jobs with regionals.

When I was exploring the best routes to the regionals, I was frustrated by the fact there isn't a set in stone route to get there. It isn't like becoming a doctor or a lawyer...it seems like no two pilots have taken the same route to the regionals.

TAB is a viable route.

The lucky pilots from TAB have made it to the regionals in six months. When choosing a route to go, consider the timeline to get there. Getting to the regional a year early can mean an extra year of pay at a high seniority rate at the end of your career. That can work out to be a considerable amount of money. Becoming a CFI is certainly a great route to go, but right now I have heard there is a glut of CFIs out there...many don't have the student load they had hope for, and most are looking at at least two years of instructing before they can get hired by the regionals.

If anyone has any questions regarding the program at TAB, feel free to send me a PM. I will give you an honest answer, and I might be able to help you decide if the program is right for you.

 

[172driver]

Tab may be a great option for you kell...but i see that you are sitting at 1200TT. Big difference between you (an experienced pilot building some turbine time) and melbourne matt (120 hrs), the more typical Tab student.

Can somebody please tell me who the regionals are (or 135 operators) that will hire a freshly minted commercial pilot with 250TT? 500 TT? Notice I didn't say interview but HIRE! Good luck. I'm sure people can be properly trained for the right seat in less than 500 hrs but that's not really the point. Bottom line is there is no right seat for you. I don't care if you have 100 hrs of safety pilot time in the space shuttle...it ain't gonna happen.

I really have nothing against Tab but for people to assert that there are jobs out there for a 250-500 hr pilot in this market is ridiculous. Prove it please.

Will someone please answer these questions for me? If you go from zero time to Tab graduate, how many hrs do you have? In what? How much money did you spend? Let's shed a little light on whether or not it's a good deal for the aviation newbie...

 

[AOPAPILOT]

After reading the latest on TAB, how will the former TAB student explain the 100 hours of King Air time with no landings or departures. The first thing the interview CAP will look at is the totals. He/she will smell a rat in all this and the student will be in a world of hurt. How will the student cover his 6? What training for the interview is given at TAB?

 

[Diesel]

gulfstream4ever paid so he knows how it feels to pay for turbine time and then leave the program.

AOPAPILOT that is an interesting point about having no landings or takeoffs. I suspect you mean by the safetypilot. Thats a good point. I remember a pilot who was logging only landings and the FAA said he was out of currency because he hadn't logged any takeoff's. Fine reading of the REg's sure is but it's the FAA.

I'll have to see what another FSDO outside of Florida thinks about safetypilot logging time towards currency. Because that's what you are basically doing. Saying to the interviewer that you have currency because you logged the time as a safety pilot. I'm not sure a FSDO would agree with that view.

I have to say that instructing does have more benefits than you can imagine. While my instruction was very limited I've found myself at a disadvantage to those that instructed. They know how to read people and know how pose questions or give advice in the cockpit.

My wife did a lot of instructing and her skills of communication are excellent.

Don't downplay instructing. There are a lot of valuable lessons there.

 

[bertengineer]

Originally posted by
The military turns 25 year olds loose in P-3's, C-130's, KC-135's etc. as aircraft commanders with less than 900 hours total flight time and they do a heck of a job.

This is because these types of planes have flight engineers that back up the new guy. I know that my 5600 hrs as FE on a C-130 helped keep us alive in more that one situation. That is as a Marine Corps FE, we do the work and we fly on them.

 

[kell17]

AOPAPILOT -- The instructors at TAB aren't on the controls for any of the take-offs and landings. The student, flying in the right seat as the sole manipulator of the controls, logs the take offs and landings.

Obviously, you can't log the take-off and landing on the portion of the loft when you are in the back seat. On any given loft flight, you fly one leg and log one take-off and landing. At the outstation, you switch out with your partner, and log safety time for the cruise portion of the flight back to DeLand while your partner has his foggles on. Your partner flies and logs one take-off and landing for the return flight. The instructor is always in the right seat for take-off and landing, but one of the students is flying.

True, safety time is not the highest regarded form of PIC time...but it is completely legal to fly and log as PIC time. If you are not a MEI or the son or daughter of wealthy parents, how else can you build multiengine flight time? Who can afford to buy solo multi time?

The safety pilot time at TAB is not "down time" for the student. In addition to handling the ATC calls and Nav, the instructor is constantly asking scenario questions from the back. As the safety pilot, the student in the right seat has to think as a Captain...and the instructor forces the students to constantly think ahead...anticipate problems...be ready for the next phase of flight. In my opinion, it was much easier to be the pilot on the controls.

All of my safety pilot multiengine PIC time is clearly logged in my logbook, with the name of the PIC on the controls in the remarks block. I never had an interviewer question its validity.

 

[eyelevelflyer]

kell17, funny how you spout praise for TAB, and you have 1200hrs. Can you see the difference between you and a 0 to 370 TAB grad. Enough said! Well not enough yet, you then defend them in another post. Saying that times are tough and the school is new, and that only the lucky get hired. Fine then DON'T ADVERTISE THAT PEOPLE ARE GETTING HIRED DIRECTLY FROM TAB AND THAT THERE IS A SHORTAGE OF PILOTS, please tell the truth. Three words, marketing, marketing, deception.

 

[eyelevelflyer]

Gulfstream4ever

Get a clue, you get 100 in the King Air, but 50 as a Safety Pilot.

 

[MelbourneMatt]

Guess what I did as a TAB student today? I logged 5.5 hours cross country with 2 actual IFR (1 ILS, 1 VOR) and a night landing in the King Air.

Now tell me, what other flight school can touch that?

If you aren't interested in what TAB has to offer, then don't go there!

When we landed in Vero Beach today, I had two FSI students come up to me and the other FO and ask if we were hiring. You should've seen his face when I told him I was a student also. He just said, "Wasn't that you in that King Air?"

 

[cyork25]

I have to put my .02 in here. I recently looked at most of the flight schools in florida and a few other states. The school that most impressed me was TAB. The other thing that impressed me was how many airline pilots, that fly for the majors, recommended this school to me, not to mention the deg. examiner/check airman for the 757 and 767 at AA.

 

[bobbysamd]

FSI v. TAB

Guess what I did as a TAB student today? I logged 5.5 hours cross country with 2 actual IFR (1 ILS, 1 VOR) and a night landing in the King Air.

Now tell me, what other flight school can touch that . . . . . When we landed in Vero Beach today, I had two FSI students come up to me and the other FO and ask if we were hiring. You should've seen his face when I told him I was a student also. He just said, "Wasn't that you in that King Air?"

I instructed at FSI. I recall a couple of flights during which my Seminole instrument students shot the ILS in actual. I recall one flight during which ATC even gave us a real hold in actual. We did plenty of IFR training at night, including night landings.

At ERAU/Prescott, we routinely took Seminole instrument students to the L.A. Basin in actual to shoot approaches.

I recall getting actual and instrument approaches in actual when I was a student flying a lowly 172.

The truth is, you can log actual and shoot approaches in actual as a student at any school if you get the right kind of weather. Students in San Francisco and L.A. get safe actual conditions. Not to mention the Northeast. You can't say that only TAB offers IFR training in IMC. The King Air time is nice, but not that much of an advantage over recip at this stage of training, especially when costs are compared.

 

[Diesel]

Why is it so impressive that the instructors are "airline guys". Most airline guys I know are way out of the loop when it comes what's hapening in the real world.

When we landed in Vero Beach today, I had two FSI students come up to me and the other FO and ask if we were hiring. You should've seen his face when I told him I was a student also. He just said, "Wasn't that you in that King Air?"

Did you tell them how much you were paying for that flight? I'm surprised SunJet is letting you pump fuel without paying cash?

Guess what I did as a TAB student today? I logged 5.5 hours cross country with 2 actual IFR (1 ILS, 1 VOR) and a night landing in the King Air.

Was this as safety pilot or PIC?

Last question do you guys have to wear hats?

 

[172driver]

Hope you're not logging PIC safety pilot time during that two hrs of IMC? I don't think you are a safety pilot when there's no traffic to look for...Who foots that bill, as 2 pilots can't log the time? I have a good guess...you both pay and log it, right?

Also, better not log the approaches that the flying pilot performed. You can log the flight time while he shoots the approaches in VFR conditions under the hood but not the approaches themselves, unless you are the sole manipulator.

That feeling you get right now when others see you in the King Air is the same one you'll see from the other end in a year or two. My guess...you'll have to dig up yet more money for a CFI ticket and they'll be getting paid to fly a King Air.

Please respond as to how you log IMC time when sharing the plane. I'm very curious because I can't see one student footing the entire bill for two hrs of King Air time just to fly in the clouds. Valuable experience, yes. Loggable by two pilots, nope. Expensive, ummm, I'd say ridiculously so.

Do you really think your IMC time in the King Air was worth a thousand bucks an hr more than in a Seminole, or even a C172? News flash...most flight schools do fly IFR cross countries and offer much more IFR time and IMC time than you'll be getting at Tab. When I get done with CFI-ing 15 miles down the road from you, I'll have logged 75-100 hrs in the soup, legitimately, and hundreds of hrs in the IFR environment.

Have fun when you are forced into getting your CFI ticket, being actually in charge of a 2400 lb aircraft, with no AP, no co-pilot, in bumpy IMC, with a pale green student next to you, hoping you know what you're doing. Hope that CRM training in the King Air comes in handy.

Oh yeah...I forgot...you'll be flying for the regionals with your 250 hrs...

 

[eyelevelflyer]

Good Post 172driver, finally someone is seeing TAB for what they really are.

 

[bobbysamd]

Airline instructors v. real CFIs

Why is it so impressive that the instructors are "airline guys". Most airline guys I know are way out of the loop when it comes what's hapening in the real world.

I have reflected on the notion of "airline guys" as instructors (as if I have nothing better to do ). Based on my experience with airline pilots, I must second Diesel.

Airline pilots know well the environment in which they operate and the equipment they fly, but, unless they are CFIs who instruct primary, instrument and commercial students actively, they have nary a clue about student pilots, student training and student training aircraft.

My last aviation employer was a well-known small company that primarily sold type ratings and trained United applicants for their interviews. The place was owned by three United pilots. Somehow, the place landed a contract to train Middle East students for their Commercial-Multi-Instrument. Providing real LOFT was to be part of the plan. I and another instructor were training them. We had a Seminole to get them their Commercial-Multi-Instrument. These owners had very little, if any, experience in student pilot training.

We had a great deal of contact with one of United pilot-owners. Although he owned a Mooney, he exhibited little knowlege (to me, anyway) about how normal student flight training worked and the environment in which student training operates. I remember talking to him about the airspace reclassification that went into effect. I tried to talk to him about Class A, B, etc. He said that because his world was IFR, he didn't care.

I realize that this was just one airline pilot and that one should not generalize, but I submit that this gentleman's attitude and level of knowledge of the student training environment was more the norm than the exception.

Airline pilots, if they can teach, are great at teaching real-world ATC and IFR flying. But, please, you have to learn how to walk before you can run. Real CFIs, who spend every day teaching in the small aircraft which many airline pilots may disdain, and whose world revolves around primary, instrument, commercial and multi students, are specialists in that field and are those from whom one should learn the rudiments of flying.