SWAPA Info packet FEDEXed to all AirTran Pilots

[On Your Six]

Great, did you happen to ask them why they are trying to piss us off by chance?

Maybe this will help more of your guys see that SWAPA wants you to thank THEM for the merger, when in fact GK facilitated this merger. You have got to watch yourself with this. It doesn't sound like SWAPA will ever be happy, so just push for arbitration, get a fair slot, stick around ATL with a higher SWA wage, and be happy. Feel the LUV, baby!


OYS

 

[Muppets]

* insert sounds of crickets chirping instead of expected laughter[/Q

tongue in cheek.....bro.

 

[shootr]

I read it, puked all over it, then set it on fire and urinated on it.

Nice try. My MC speaks for me.

Dudes! This is NOT the guy you want talking for you. You're not playing this thing right. Take it or leave it.

 

[Clyde Frog]

Dudes! This is NOT the guy you want talking for you. You're not playing this thing right. Take it or leave it.

Since when did I become the voice of every AirTran pilot? That's the job of our MC.

 

[Dolce]

CF,

Why don't you quit now before you ever set foot on property at SWA! Obviously you feel so little about the company you will be working for and little regard for the union who will be representing you in the near future. Go to DAL...they're ALPA and OYS will surely write you a letter.

D

 

[GoodTimes]

Kharma,

Step away from the computer for awhile...... or at least the keyboard. You're life is getting better, not worse! Not many people can say that these days.

 

[Lear70]

Regardless of the intent, the timing for this wasn't the best. With all the rhetoric being thrown around by some SWA pilots and a couple SWAPA reps, we're already on edge. Sending something that can be so obviously misconstrued and asking for our feedback (which could obviously be used in an SLI arbitration) just isn't being well-received.

At the very beginning of the process, in Nov and Dec during the round-ups, we already received a booklet with a synopsis of the pay rates and a way to convert hourly rates to TFP, allowing us to see what kind of pay we could expect at our current longevity (assuming our seniority equated to something with the ability to bid a similar line that we hold now). It also included a benefits synopsis, an overview of the bidding system, a history of the airline and union, side letters, etc. It was very thorough, the round-ups were a great success, and overall was the right way and the right TIME to put forth that information.

Giving it to us again, but in a way that uses the veiled "IF the carriers integrate" reference again (that's like waving a red flag in front of a bull, by the way), and right as we enter the last month of direct negotiations,,, Well, I'll just ask "Why re-send something we already received?"

I won't assume that this was trying to negotiate directly with us, but I will say that any such attempt would be misguided simply because our structure isn't set up like yours at the union level. We elect our REPS. Our REPS elect the MEC leaders (Chair and Vice-Chair). The Chair appoints the committees, (although the Merger Committee was constructed by both the Chair and the MEC, technically the MEC Chair holds the authority to change it as his discretion). What all that means is that we poor line swine are 3 steps away from having ANY control over what the Merger Committee is instructed to do. Convincing *US* isn't going to do anything if whatever proposal you want us to consider doesn't ever reach us to vote on.

Your NC needs to convince our MC and MEC. Not us. All we do is vote when it gets here. So I'll simply say "Thank you" for something to read, maybe glean a new nugget or two of info, add it to my collection of SWA memorabilia, and wait for our next MC update after the meetings next week.

 

[Dolce]

Lear,
We elect our reps and Pres/two VPs...so we are different besides not being ALPA. Other than that, why don't you think outside the box a little on this one maybe. It will come to you...maybe it won't! I'm sure you'll be able to always bid your current line in ATL. History is funny, we hate it in school so we fail to learn it or learn from it, but it always seems to repeat itself! I'm just saying...

D

 

[XR650R]

Lear- not trying to flame here but if SWA management is using the "if" word in their correspondence with you, then it probably is a thinly veiled threat. SWA can be very cold and brutal if need be. Ask any ATA pilot if you don't believe me. SWA WILL not accept any solution that harms a current SWA pilot's career and neither will we. This of course does not have to be the case though. Hopefully your MC and our NC will be able to hammer something out that is agreeable to both sides. Please don't let a few hard core ALPA thugs dictate what the majority of AAI plots want- a reasonable integration in line with previous career expectations. It seems a few gooned it up for the F9 boys and girls, don't let that happen here.
PS lot's of moving parts still in this deal. For example, we're now hearing that the 717 sims won't be going to DAL and the planes them selves are being sold to Boeing.

 

[scoreboardII]

I encourage each and every airtran pilot to dig their heals in and show SWA how disgusted you feel because of this letter.

 

[CaptWidgeon]

ahhhhh, forget it.

 

[Daddy]

I am thinking that if this thread is indicative of the mood at airtran towards integration, then it will never happen. I wish I could give you guys the perspective here, but it is just something you have to see. You should realize that it is probably most cost-efficient not to integrate and that SWA mgmt is trying to be the good guy here...I would not expect that to last forever.

 

[kwick]

I am thinking that if this thread is indicative of the mood at airtran towards integration, then it will never happen. I wish I could give you guys the perspective here, but it is just something you have to see. You should realize that it is probably most cost-efficient not to integrate and that SWA mgmt is trying to be the good guy here...I would not expect that to last forever.

Dude, You must be smart enough to know that if you attempt to rape
somebody they're gonna fight back.

 

[GoodTimes]

The current SWAPA contract guarantees us almost nothing in the long term. That is reality my friend. Why is that so hard for some people to understand? Contracts come and go with no guarantees, that's a fact, it's a snapshot in time. Seniority numbers don't come with an ammendable date, your contract does.

This isn't rocket science. Look at DAL/UAL/UsAir in 2001. Go back further and look at Pan Am, Eastern, Braniff and more recently, TWA. Bad things can happen to good airlines, it's a historical fact.

Clyde,

That's a pretty thin argument considering you've been bought by the most successful airline in the history of airlines. 38 consecutive years of profitability. Never furloughed a pilot. Labor relations that are the envy of the corporate world. The list goes on. Trying to discount your gains by comparing SWA to the giants of the regulated era and their slow, painful decline comes across as disingenuous at best. Your life is getting better, not worse. The numbers don't lie and eventually you'll have to consider the concerns of the SWA pilots as this thing moves forward.

 

[Crash Pad]

Did I miss something? Say I get the packet and blow my load all over it. I think "WOW I could be rich!" Then what? Can I move over to SWA tomorrow? I can't change anything I'm still along for the ride.

Maybe I get the packet and my head explodes. I start having flashbacks of Nam and every other CEO this fine industry has had in its storied history. I'm breathing fire. I'm ready to send a message to SWAPA.... I still can't change anything and am along for the ride.

I don't understand what the packet does one way or another. I'll let it rain cold hard facts in here. Anything that gets past our negotiators and goes to our pilots for a vote will pass. SWAPA doesn't have to convince us, our wives, families etc... All they have to do is slip just enough seniority into the talks to get it past our negotiators.

That also doesn't matter because anything that gets past our negotiators won't pass a SWAPA vote.

 

[PapaWoody]

It was around daybreak...the first freight train to Omaha had just rumbled overhead. A FedEx truck screamed by and under my slightly used sleeping bag I heard a package land softly by the spillway me, my wife and son call home. I jumped to my feet thinking this must be my new Section 8 housing application! It was not...it was something much better...a letter from SWAPA. As I read the note my excitement grew! "Honey, come look!" As she read...she began to weep. "Does this mean I can get my tooth cleaned?" I nooded with a joyous grin. At the same time my boy was stirring from his slumber. As he began tying his Kleenex boxes to his feet I said "Son.....your daddy just hit the jackpot....no more boxes on your feet." He jumped for joy. "How did this happen?" he said. My wife and I were halfway through a bottle of MD 20/20. I replied..."A great purple and orange angel from the sky has saved us...no more living under a bridge...no more panhandling so Dad can get PopEyes in concourse C." We had a celebratory breakfast of sparrow legs and squirrel meat (fresh off the interstate). After that, I ran to the library so I could get on-line and read of the windfall we all have discovered. The security guard gave me an interrogating glare as I walked past. The local library dosent allow us AirTran hobos inside (even for a shower). After I stole some books to make a fire for the night to come...I got on FI. All I can say is "Thank You SWA" .....no more freight trains to work...fighting crack heads for the last subway spot.....hoping Gen. Lee will throw me a quarter as I stand in my uniform on the street corner....and most of all...electricity, water and a roof over our head.

I don't care who you are, that was funny right there!!

Well bowled, sir - PW

 

[redflyer65]

Lear- not trying to flame here but if SWA management is using the "if" word in their correspondence with you, then it probably is a thinly veiled threat. SWA can be very cold and brutal if need be. Ask any ATA pilot if you don't believe me. SWA WILL not accept any solution that harms a current SWA pilot's career and neither will we. This of course does not have to be the case though. Hopefully your MC and our NC will be able to hammer something out that is agreeable to both sides. Please don't let a few hard core ALPA thugs dictate what the majority of AAI plots want- a reasonable integration in line with previous career expectations. It seems a few gooned it up for the F9 boys and girls, don't let that happen here.
PS lot's of moving parts still in this deal. For example, we're now hearing that the 717 sims won't be going to DAL and the planes them selves are being sold to Boeing.

Well stated sir.

 

[gt1900]

Money doesn't buy me weekends and holidays off. Money doesn't buy me the ability to be able to watch my kids saturday soccer and football games. Money doesn't get me off to spend long weekends with my wife. Money doesn't give me good schedules when I near retirement so I don't have to work so hard. Seniority does. Get it? AAI guys are smart enough to know that money comes and goes. Look how much money UAL gave up, and now AAI pilots make more then them. Contracts last for 4 years, seniority lasts for a career. BTW.. I live well below my means, so I don't need the money. I need to keep my weekends, holidays, and what ever days I want off, off. Money doesn't do that, but seniority sure does! Im really excited to be a member of SWAPA and SWA. I was hoping that when that happened I would no longer have to deal with some of the chit we had to deal with at AAI. However, this letter makes me believe its going to be the same old crap, just different airline. I hope Im really wrong. Big mistake by SWAPA IMO.

And now Im off for the beach for a week of ice cold beers and grilling out on the beach and forgetting what seems like we are re-living our last contract negotiations. Luckily, my seniority allows me to bid whatever vacation days I want off in order to do that. If I cant do that at SWA when I get there, then you can keep the money.

 

[redflyer65]

Money doesn't buy me weekends and holidays off. Money doesn't buy me the ability to be able to watch my kids saturday soccer and football games. Money doesn't get me off to spend long weekends with my wife. Money doesn't give me good schedules when I near retirement so I don't have to work so hard. Seniority does. Get it? AAI guys are smart enough to know that money comes and goes. Look how much money UAL gave up, and now AAI pilots make more then them. Contracts last for 4 years, seniority lasts for a career. BTW.. I live well below my means, so I don't need the money. I need to keep my weekends, holidays, and what ever days I want off, off. Money doesn't do that, but seniority sure does! Im really excited to be a member of SWAPA and SWA. I was hoping that when that happened I would no longer have to deal with some of the chit we had to deal with at AAI. However, this letter makes me believe its going to be the same old crap, just different airline. I hope Im really wrong. Big mistake by SWAPA IMO.

And now Im off for the beach for a week of ice cold beers and grilling out on the beach and forgetting what seems like we are re-living our last contract negotiations. Luckily, my seniority allows me to bid whatever vacation days I want off in order to do that. If I cant do that at SWA when I get there, then you can keep the money.

Wait a minute...you're excited that you NOW make as much as United? You are now comparing the new 'Southwest induced' AAI payscales to a bankrupt contract at United. Really? After comparing a Airtran Captain rate and a SW FO rate. (PS- the FO make more if you didn't look more closely)

It might be best that you not bring up anymore payrate comparisons, you obviously don't see how out of touch you appear with this stuff.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Money doesn't buy me weekends and holidays off. Money doesn't buy me the ability to be able to watch my kids saturday soccer and football games. Money doesn't get me off to spend long weekends with my wife. Money doesn't give me good schedules when I near retirement so I don't have to work so hard. Seniority does. Get it? AAI guys are smart enough to know that money comes and goes. Look how much money UAL gave up, and now AAI pilots make more then them. Contracts last for 4 years, seniority lasts for a career. BTW.. I live well below my means, so I don't need the money. I need to keep my weekends, holidays, and what ever days I want off, off. Money doesn't do that, but seniority sure does! Im really excited to be a member of SWAPA and SWA. I was hoping that when that happened I would no longer have to deal with some of the chit we had to deal with at AAI. However, this letter makes me believe its going to be the same old crap, just different airline. I hope Im really wrong. Big mistake by SWAPA IMO.

And now Im off for the beach for a week of ice cold beers and grilling out on the beach and forgetting what seems like we are re-living our last contract negotiations. Luckily, my seniority allows me to bid whatever vacation days I want off in order to do that. If I cant do that at SWA when I get there, then you can keep the money.

Newsflash! Your company just got bought out. You'll probably be lucky to even have a job when it's all over.

Some of you guys cannot see the forest from the trees.

 

[Ty Webb]

Wait a minute...you're excited that you NOW make as much as United? You are now comparing the new 'Southwest induced' AAI payscales to a bankrupt contract at United. Really? After comparing a Airtran Captain rate and a SW FO rate. (PS- the FO make more if you didn't look more closely)

It might be best that you not bring up anymore payrate comparisons, you obviously don't see how out of touch you appear with this stuff.

What GT1900 is saying is that UAL used to be the among the very highest paid pilots in the world, now an AirTran pilot makes more than they do, and he's right. Some of you guys don't seem to remember that prior to 2003, SWA pay was at the bottom of the majors. No guarantee that won't happen again; in fact- you can pretty much count on it.

 

[Ty Webb]

* insert sounds of crickets chirping instead of expected laughter[/Q

tongue in cheek.....bro.

and damned funny, too. :laugh:

 

[SWA/FO]

I hope you guys have NO say in the 717 rates.... I mean, since money has no importance to you. You better let SWAPA handle the big boy stuff . They will knock it out on the front 9 with Southwest management, DONE!

Its coming up to that "fork in the road" moment I talked about a few months ago. Like it or not :angryfire:bawling:. You either TRUST Southwest and prosper :beer: or roll the dice . Just reality.

I'm looking forward to flying with most of you. I don't care if Ty or PLC make it over, in fact I hope they don't, but it is a package deal, I guess.

:cartman:

 

[canyonblue]

Wow, unbelievable what is being said by a paranoid group that we a bringing over to join us at Southwest. I was told that this letter was a joint SWAPA/SWA mailing. Many of us worked at carriers that had bad management with evil intentions, we all knew Southwest didn't. If you are really that disgusted with the letter, let Gary Kelly know. If you don't have the gut's to do that, then shut the F up.

 

[madjack]

I wish the AAI MC had sent us material comparing the pay and benefits of the AAI CBA to SWA's CBA...that would have been an eye opener to MANY SWA pilots...

Ty, what do you want?: Your seat/seniority/and the better pay and benefits of the SWA CBA...you do realize in order for you to get all these things every SWA pilot would have to pay for it...how is that fair and equitable?...and don't you realize that the asking for it is only infuriating the SWA pilot group.

This is all a waste of time: A negotiated settlement will be hammered out, voted on...the MC and NC are meeting with SWA management next week and I assume it will be a meeting designed to "incentivise" the NC/MC to reach an agreement in the next 4 weeks so that the memberships can vote and we can start the integration SOONER than LATER.

GK has taken SWA down the road of "Growth through Acquisition"...his legacy is hanging on the success of this deal...I can think of many ways he can "grease the skids"...the main way is through pay protection...hypothetically speaking if a former AAI CP is pay protected and/or a senior SWA FO gets CP pay for being passed over for upgrade how can that be construed as unfair?...we are all going to have to give up something in this deal (it is not our fault, we can thank our CEOs, and it may be a brilliant play).

I view this package from SWAPA as info only and an informed AAI group is better than an uninformed group...

Here comes the great unknown: If we don't reach a negotiated settlement and the ISL is determined via arbitration...At this point I do not know what GK will do because we do not know what the arbitrators decision will be...do we want to take that risk? OYS and Gen (who have no skin in the game) are recommending that the AAI guys go to arbitration. Many have said that is the best route for the AAI pilots...I do not know what GK can/will do with the arbitrated list...I do know he REALLY wants a negotiated agreement...he wants to know what he is getting into vs the unknown of arbitration...

 

[Tripower455]

The current SWAPA contract guarantees us almost nothing in the long term. That is reality my friend. Why is that so hard for some people to understand? Contracts come and go with no guarantees, that's a fact, it's a snapshot in time. Seniority numbers don't come with an ammendable date, your contract does.

This isn't rocket science. Look at DAL/UAL/UsAir in 2001. Go back further and look at Pan Am, Eastern, Braniff and more recently, TWA. Bad things can happen to good airlines, it's a historical fact.

As someone who actually worked for 3 of the companies that you named above, I am amazed at your sense of entitlement.

Seniority isn't forever. Period. There are no guarantees in life, and when you get bought, there is a good chance you're seniority is going to be affected. In your case, you are getting a lot of tangible and immediate benefits when the lists are combined to soften the blow.

The "seniority is forever" argument is weak, at best, but can also be applied to us.

So we should give you guys OUR seniority, just in case something bad happens later, in addition to the great contract that you're gonna get IMMEDIATELY upon SLI?

I realize that you guys think you're bringing equal amounts of toys into the sandbox, but you're not.

Roughly 10% of your seniority list voluntarily left AAI to come to SW at the bottom of the list. Roughly 1/3 of your list had active apps on file at SW on 9/27/10. I'm sure that more than that have left to go other places as well. That very clearly says that this is not a merger of equals.

Why is that so hard to understand that we don't want our careers hurt by this acquisition?

 

[greenpilot]

I thought it was a nice welcome package. Some of the numbers were a little off, but I think it is nice to see what we can look forward to. I didn't feel that swapa or swa was trying to influence how I feel about the SLI. People need to relax. Our mc/nc are working together and will get things done one way or another. Remember we a going to be working together some day.

 

[Bob Dylan]

If I was a Southwest pilot, I would accept nothing less than a straight staple. Seniority is forever, just like the trannies always say. Their company got bought, you guys shouldn't lose ANY seniority over it.

 

[CaptWidgeon]

welcome gumby! d@mn it.

 

[Clyde Frog]

If you are really that disgusted with the letter, let Gary Kelly know. If you don't have the gut's to do that, then shut the F up.

You see Mr Blue, that's the job of our MC. They represent our interests and negotiate on our behalf as the process agreement states. This is clearly a problem for some to understand. We don't get involved on a personal basis, that's not the way it works. We'll continue to follow th PA all the way to arbitration if necessary. The veiled threats don't worry us, but please feel free to keep making them if it makes you feel better about the outcome.