SWAPA in "meetings" with ATA's ALPA

[SWA/FO]

Whats this meeting about? Anybody got anything? Heard it is happening next week sometime. You heard it here first!

 

[njcapt]

Well, not everybody heard it first from you. SWAPA requested that the entire ATA MEC join them at a regular meeting in Dallas. It could be that they're getting worried about whipsawing (a year too late if you ask me), or wanting to talk about potential expanded codeshare. We'll find out after the 27th.

 

[ERJ Jay]

But SWA is not ALPA. Look at AA and TWA = staple with fences.

 

[32LT10]

Actually ALPA merger policy is based on Career Expectations. DOH is but an item that would be factored into the equation.

So Guppy Killer you are a bit off the mark with your post. Of course with those stellar qualifications I don't know how it could have happened. As for you moniker, was Career Killer already taken?

 

[njcapt]

Probably something to do about a merger. And since ALPA merger policy is by date of hire, alot of ATA guys will be sitting pretty in SWA cockpits soon.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha. You crack me up. Ha ha ha ha. No really, stop it. Ha ha ha ha.

 

[OffHot]

Merger? Most likely not. As said above we are not ALPA, history with Morris is pay protection but at the bottom of the list, with this pilot group I dont see that changing.

 

[flx757]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha. You crack me up. Ha ha ha ha. No really, stop it. Ha ha ha ha.

TheGuppyKiller is Rhoid, 410Dude, IHaveAPension, RJDC, the Guat, Freight Nazi, TheMissingLink, etc, etc.....:smash:

 

[FDJ2]

And since ALPA merger policy is by date of hire, alot of ATA guys will be sitting pretty in SWA cockpits soon.

ALPA merger policy is not by date of hire.

 

[Hvy]

Probably something to do about a merger. And since ALPA merger policy is by date of hire, alot of ATA guys will be sitting pretty in SWA cockpits soon.

ALPA merger policy IS NOT date of hire. Trying to stir the pot, huh?

 

[FDJ2]

Merger? Most likely not. As said above we are not ALPA, history with Morris is pay protection but at the bottom of the list, with this pilot group I dont see that changing.

If there were a merger, and that is a very big if, since it appears neither company is required to merge their respective seniority lists, then I very much doubt that it would be similar to the Morris integration.

Most likely scenario is that the two MECs need to start working together in order to protect both sides from possible whipsaw.

 

[HalinTexas]

Merger? Nope.

Fragmentation? Maybe.

With employees? As few as possible.

World domination? Too late for that. Coulda got us cheap in bankruptcy. Now you gotta pay Mattlin/Patterson.

I predict nothing of substance will come of this meeting. Lotsa "Howdy-doos" etc.

 

[TexaSWA]

No I'm not.

Hey, is that the new plane that all the commuters are getting now? Thats sweet!!!

 

[OffHot]

If there were a merger, and that is a very big if, since it appears neither company is required to merge their respective seniority lists, then I very much doubt that it would be similar to the Morris integration.

Most likely scenario is that the two MECs need to start working together in order to protect both sides from possible whipsaw.

First we are not ALPA--no MEC. Second, Ii do respect ATA and would welcome them, but we are the stronger airline, if given the option by the company, between intergrating ATA into our seniority list or growing at a slower pace on our own, money says we chose the latter. Again this is not to say that the ATA pilots are not welcome, they are, but pay protection and no seniority is the best anyone other than a SWA hire has received. The other option, is bring no pilots but give them interviews and types (if hired). This has been done also. If I was a Morris guy/gal and we intergrated with ATA and they got any seniority I would be a little upset.

 

[atafan]

Just to throw my 2 cents worth in.

I would rather stay ATA and operate as a codeshare partner with SWA but this decision is not in my hands. I am sure that SWA pilots will have a problem with this arrangement at some point.

To compare Morris to ATA is apples to oranges. What did Morris bring to the table? Some gates, people and equipment. ATA brings Worldwide Operating Authority, ETOPs operations (Which includes equipment, training and experience). LGA and DCA slots and a lucrative Military Charter operation. SWA could make the next huge step to an international flag operator on the cheap.

The additional flying that ATA would bring and future International operations is huge and critical for SWA to make the next step.

Please respect what ATA brings to the table and let's work together, if called to do so and make this a model for all airlines to follow.

P.S.
I couldn't care less what ALPA does or says either........

 

[TriStar_drvr]

I predict that a lot of good bourbon and Scotch will be drunk. Nice expensive dinners will be consumed. And maybe a few after dinner cigars will be smoked.

Other than that, I don't expect any earth shattering announcements.

 

[CaptainMark]

, but we are the stronger airline

good luck with that...that has nothing to do with it...fedex was the stronger airline and non-alpa when they bought tigers....guess what..an arbitrator merged them and it had nothing to do with who was stronger...wait to see what happens to usair and amwest....the only one who is happy when seniority lists are merged is the number 1 guy...swafo..gonna be an fo a little longer..?

 

[SWA/FO]

Don't think so CaptainMark.

imp:= me

I predict that a lot of good bourbon and Scotch will be drunk. Nice expensive dinners will be consumed. And maybe a few after dinner cigars will be smoked.

Other than that, I don't expect any earth shattering announcements.

What about the dancing girls and the scandal?

 

[atafan]

swafo..gonna be an fo a little longer..?

If SWA utilizes ATA in a way to start Worldwide service, I'd expect much more expansion and SWA/FO should make Captain soon, regardless of any possible ATA seniority integration scenario.

 

[Mach8Forest]

Can someone define Career Expectations in this industry? ALPO's recent history shows that it goes with the group that has more potential dues paying members. They abandoned one of thier founding member Airlines recently in the hopes of catching a bigger prize.
Mach8Forest

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

I really, really hope it turns out positive for the ATA folks. But I'm getting that not so fresh feeling in empathy for them.

What I do know for sure ---

The majority of the pilot group will have little to say on what SWA management decides to do with our partnership with ATA. When ATA went private SWA got some of their money back and distanced themselves from ATA. Management is selling this as good for SWA. This may be so, but I would still like to help out ATA folks as much as possible. The SWA pilot group is not all on the same sheet of music on ATA. Some like the partnership (like me) and others do not.


Off topic--

Whatever the future holds please don't use the jumpseat as a weapon. Whether its fake quotes from SWAPA or SWA pilots by a NY Times reporter or SWA management maneuvers, the average SWA pilot is humble and trying to make it thru this wilderness just like everyone else.

God Bless.

 

[HalinTexas]

The SWA pilot group is not all on the sheet of music on ATA. Some like the partnership (like me) and others do not.

Can you enlighten me as to why? I do know that our "association" was threatening your scope, but what else?

I can tell you many (from all groups) at ATA are rather displeased with the outcome of our codeshare. We've given up ALL of Florida. SWA probably wouldn't have been so quick to enter Denver had it not been for our codeshare. Basically, we've been a place marker for SWA.

It made some people at other airlines a little nervous because of the international implications, but they have not and probably won't be realized to any great extent. SWA could enter these markets within the year, since their reservations system is almost up and running. ETOPS? You could do it within 2-3 years if you wanted to go somewhere else than HI. Other than that, it's not worth it.

This bailout/codeshare has been a win-win for SWA. You got control of MDW for free, entered some markets like LGA, DCA and HI without investment, and you're making money. ATA is still losing money in scheduled service. Those old L10's are keeping our doors open again. There is no real reason for us to be in business. There is no real growth oriented business plan outside of ad-hoc military charter.

Save some jobs, you say? That's debatable depending on who you ask. I use the band-aid analogy. It's there temporarily to cover a boo-boo. You can't leave it on indefinitely. The question is, "how do you take it off?" Slowly or quickly. If AWA had been successful, the integration would be complete. It's been rumored that SWA had something to do with it's failure to pass. If Airtran had upped the ante and aquired us, I would have been furloughed, along with 2/3 of the company by last May, but it would have been over with. One quick yank and the band-aid is off.

Other than that, I get along great with SWA and respect their business model even with future looming pressures. I do not blame SWA employees for our problems. In fact, my app. is still active. I hope they call soon after July 1.

 

[atafan]

This may be so, but I would still like to help out ATA folks as much as possible.

I appreciate your attitude, I believe ATA brings much to the table and I just want to be treated with respect that we have earned. Whatever happens will happen without much input from SWA pilots or ATA pilots but we can agree to treat each other as professionals and not let greed rule the day. I've been through that before.

 

[radarlove]

If AWA had been successful, the integration would be complete. It's been rumored that SWA had something to do with it's failure to pass.

What does this sentence mean? AWA?

 

[HalinTexas]

What does this sentence mean? AWA?

America West Airlines had an offer on the table before SWA made their offer. The respective AFA and ALPA groups had even met and tentatively agreed upon an integration. Funding for the venture mysteriously evaporated at the last minute.

 

[filejw]

Just a heads up on the seniority thing.If ATA is out of bankruptcy they will have a valid contract. Most but not all ALPA carriers have a successorship clause that requires the acquiring Co. to merge the employees to a standard of the Allegheny Mohawk merger. What this really means is an arbitration.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Can you enlighten me as to why? I do know that our "association" was threatening your scope, but what else?

I don't think it was/is any ill will toward ATA. I think it is a worry of less growth at SWA due to codeshare with ATA. I personally think this worry is wrong headed. You can't just start up international flying from scratch in the SWA business model without expenses eating you up for many months.

Partnering with ATA has been very smart and I hope it results in long term profits for both companies.

 

[mach zero]

Can you enlighten me as to why? I do know that our "association" was threatening your scope, but what else?

I can tell you many (from all groups) at ATA are rather displeased with the outcome of our codeshare. We've given up ALL of Florida. SWA probably wouldn't have been so quick to enter Denver had it not been for our codeshare. Basically, we've been a place marker for SWA.

It made some people at other airlines a little nervous because of the international implications, but they have not and probably won't be realized to any great extent. SWA could enter these markets within the year, since their reservations system is almost up and running. ETOPS? You could do it within 2-3 years if you wanted to go somewhere else than HI. Other than that, it's not worth it.

This bailout/codeshare has been a win-win for SWA. You got control of MDW for free, entered some markets like LGA, DCA and HI without investment, and you're making money. ATA is still losing money in scheduled service. Those old L10's are keeping our doors open again. There is no real reason for us to be in business. There is no real growth oriented business plan outside of ad-hoc military charter.

Save some jobs, you say? That's debatable depending on who you ask. I use the band-aid analogy. It's there temporarily to cover a boo-boo. You can't leave it on indefinitely. The question is, "how do you take it off?" Slowly or quickly. If AWA had been successful, the integration would be complete. It's been rumored that SWA had something to do with it's failure to pass. If Airtran had upped the ante and aquired us, I would have been furloughed, along with 2/3 of the company by last May, but it would have been over with. One quick yank and the band-aid is off.

Other than that, I get along great with SWA and respect their business model even with future looming pressures. I do not blame SWA employees for our problems. In fact, my app. is still active. I hope they call soon after July 1.

First off, our computer res system is NOT close to up an running for int'l ops. I talked with Technology and Schedule Planning about it a couple of weeks ago and we are over a year or more out from having the changes finished. According to Schedule Planning, ATA has been eager to go across the Atlantic under codeshare but SWA is the holdup due to our computer res. problems (which aren't easily fixed BTW).

Yes, SWA could pursue International Quals. but that takes money plus uses up our hedged fuel faster. So the question becomes is it cheaper to acquire ATA or get the certifications ourselves.

I know SWAPA was talking (internally) about a merger scenario until this private investment group came in. Now, things have cooled somewhat. I'm sure all ATA ALPA really cares about though is their beloved Flight Engineers ( I saw this when I was working there).

What is starting to really pi$$ me off are the ATA guys who are supporting keeping the Wright Amendment in place. We are tied together under this codeshare for 7 years now. I suggest we learn how to get along and make this work.

 

[atafan]

Mach Zero,

Good post! If you worked at ATA you know we have our 10% but for the most part ATA has a very positive and loyal, sometimes to a fault, group of pilots.

I'm sure all ATA ALPA really cares about though is their beloved Flight Engineers ( I saw this when I was working there).

Negotiations are under way even as I type this with NWA about leasing 9 airworthy DC-10-30s with a few spare parts A/C.

Inside Rumor: ATA will initiate a Second Officer Program and may not allow Pro FEs the option of bidding the A/C. I'm sure our MEC will negotiate even more of our contract away just to give the rights back to the few FE's that have been on the street since 2001. These DC-10s will only be on the property for no more than 3 years.

 

[FedEx1]

ATA will initiate a Second Officer Program and may not allow Pro FEs the option of bidding the A/C. I'm sure our MEC will negotiate even more of our contract away just to give the rights back to the few FE's that have been on the street since 2001. These DC-10s will only be on the property for no more than 3 years.

Good luck getting that past your MEC...

 

[filejw]

NWA DC10's..I hope they plan on putting some money into those things. Although fun to fly they are getting long in the tooth.Cabins especially. Word is we will be down to six by Nov 1st..