SWAPA Comments about 717

[redflyer65]

40 total a day vs. over 4000 flights combined is pretty small potatos. I hope they stay with a low number or at least make a sizable profit if we do increase them.

 

[Tripower455]

Ellit will be your saving grace.

Unless of course, you hold Friday, Saturday or, like this month, Sunday starts....

 

[texman]

Unless of course, you hold Friday, Saturday or, like this month, Sunday starts....

It takes me about 45 mins to get two full weekends of with monday starts, or all partial weekends on ellit. Working it.

 

[Tripower455]

It takes me about 45 mins to get two full weekends of with monday starts, or all partial weekends on ellit. Working it.

I've had to start bidding Monday starts to avoid the DTC nonsense.

 

[texman]

I've had to start bidding Monday starts to avoid the DTC nonsense.

Yea, I heard ELLIT was even more flexible back in the day.

 

[Daddy]

It was insane back in the day. It still works now, depending on your base and manning situation.

 

[PropPiedmont]

40 total a day vs. over 4000 flights combined is pretty small potatos. I hope they stay with a low number or at least make a sizable profit if we do increase them.

It's actually pretty big potatoes if you don't want to work a redeye.

40 flights/day times 30 days/month = 1,200 redeyes. 1,200 flights spread over 9 crew bases = 133 redeyes/base each month. SL 14 limits the number of redeyes to 1 per line, with a chance of 2 on one line. Majority will be placed on PM lines. So, if you are a PM flyer, expect 100 PM lines in your base that will contain atleast one redeye pairing.

Don't forget about the separate ELITT restrictions that also come along with the redeye pairing.

There will be no pure redeye lines. Hope all the Yes voters understood this.

 

[Lear70]

It's actually pretty big potatoes if you don't want to work a redeye.

40 flights/day times 30 days/month = 1,200 redeyes. 1,200 flights spread over 9 crew bases = 133 redeyes/base each month. SL 14 limits the number of redeyes to 1 per line, with a chance of 2 on one line. Majority will be placed on PM lines. So, if you are a PM flyer, expect 100 PM lines in your base that will contain atleast one redeye pairing.

Don't forget about the separate ELITT restrictions that also come along with the redeye pairing.

There will be no pure redeye lines. Hope all the Yes voters understood this.

What are the ELITT restrictions? Let me guess, you can't ELITT a red-eye trip...? :/

 

[PropPiedmont]

What are the ELITT restrictions? Let me guess, you can't ELITT a red-eye trip...? :/

ETOPS redeye pairings will only be ELITTable for other ETOPS redeye pairings.

Normal redeye pairings will be ELITTable, but you must add a duty period if doing so. For example, a 2 day redeye will ELITT as a 3 day trip.

 

[Daddy]

You wont be adding a day...it will be 3day for 3day. The redeye pairing will have 2 duty days of flying in it, but will pay at least 19.5 as a 3day. The reserves will be the ones sucking these up if they suck bad, but there will be those that fly them as others have said. If the long overnight is where someone lives or wants to be or if its commutable, someone may just want it. Low block will be attractive to others. ELITT restrictions on the ETOPS pairings is the most compelling reason to avoidance bid the whole group IMO.

 

[Stewie]

What is elitt?

 

[scoreboardII]

It's actually pretty big potatoes if you don't want to work a redeye.

40 flights/day times 30 days/month = 1,200 redeyes. 1,200 flights spread over 9 crew bases = 133 redeyes/base each month. SL 14 limits the number of redeyes to 1 per line, with a chance of 2 on one line. Majority will be placed on PM lines. So, if you are a PM flyer, expect 100 PM lines in your base that will contain atleast one redeye pairing.

Don't forget about the separate ELITT restrictions that also come along with the redeye pairing.

There will be no pure redeye lines. Hope all the Yes voters understood this.

An average base has 400 FO lines, 50% AM, 25% PM and 25% mixed. Meaning of the 100 PM lines, 100% will have one redeye.

FYGKPM

 

[SWA Bubba]

What is elitt?

"Enhanced Line Improvement Trip Trade." It used to be regular Line Improvement Trip Trade, then about 8 year ago, the supposedly made it better (or at least more flexible), and added the "enhanced."

After all the lines have been awarded, there's still lots of uncovered flying in the company's bank. ELITT allows you to trade your line's trip(s) with trips in the company bank, with restrictions. Basically, you're trading flying you have on your line with the company, for different days, different overnights, different pay, etc.

Bubba

 

[Lear70]

"Enhanced Line Improvement Trip Trade." It used to be regular Line Improvement Trip Trade, then about 8 year ago, the supposedly made it better (or at least more flexible), and added the "enhanced."

After all the lines have been awarded, there's still lots of uncovered flying in the company's bank. ELITT allows you to trade your line's trip(s) with trips in the company bank, with restrictions. Basically, you're trading flying you have on your line with the company, for different days, different overnights, different pay, etc.

Bubba

Think of it as SAP 1.

 

[WOWIdidntKnow]

Lear,

The red-eye turn that you described ATL - PHX -ATL would approximately pay the following:

ATL - PHX (blk 4+05) 4.8 tfp
PHX - ATL (blk 3+35) 4.3 tfp
----------------------------
total 9.1 tfp

Based on the mileage formula of 1580 miles (ATL-PHX) the least the leg would pay is 4.3 tfp.

Based on the time formula (first 55 minutes pays 1.0, every 5 min there after pay .1) a block of 4+05 would pay 4.8

Your pay for the leg is the greater of the two methods to calculate.

 

[Lear70]

Thanks for the break-down.

For us it would end up paying 7:40, since it's a single duty period, and we only have a duty period guarantee for those kinds of trips.

So, basically, someone who does 3 of those in a row over 4 days of flying (late evening to early morning), would make 23 hours, versus a normal 4-day for us paying between 22 and 24 hours.

At Southwest, it would seem 3 of those over 4 days of flying (3 duty periods) would be worth 27.3 Trips, and it seems your 3 days are worth at least that much, and your 4 days (which is how much flying we're talking about here) are worth a LOT more than that.

So the only pilots who would want them would either want to be home all day every day or just like night flying (like PCL). Otherwise, it looks like that would go junior for you guys because of the pay?

Here they usually they get dumped into open time as much as is allowed by our system; few want them. I'm sorry to see them coming to SWA, truthfully. They may be a money maker, but they're unsafe unless you get on a night rhythm and stay there or are just one of those night owl kind of people.

How senior do the A.M. lines usually go in say MCO or BWI? Alternately I guess you could bid OAK, LAS, or PHX since you're obviously not going to have redeyes to those cities, be more senior, drop most of your trips, and pick up regular trips in other bases... That commute will suck, though.

 

[slaquer5]

Thanks for the break-down.



How senior do the A.M. lines usually go in say MCO or BWI? .

Stay away from AMs. they are a weird group .......

 

[Tripower455]

"Enhanced Line Improvement Trip Trade." It used to be regular Line Improvement Trip Trade, then about 8 year ago, the supposedly made it better (or at least more flexible), and added the "enhanced."

Yeah, LITT was very restrictive. You could only trade for the same number of days, and the total pay had to be within a 2.5-3 tfp or you couldn't do it. You couldn't select a bunch of trips to get rid of, then select a bunch to take, and hit the trade button, you could only do one block at a time. ELITT fixed all of it, and at first, the only restriction was net zero, which was to prevent everyone from dumping their lines and picking at premium.

DTC was the game changer, and screws the company as well as the guys trying to ELITT. I thank SWApA just about every day (because now I have to check it every friggin day) for coming up with that little gem.......

 

[MILF Hunter]

No one will get laid off. I personally will take a pay cut to not lay anyone off the SWA and AT side, but that is just me. I have been on the street before and it sucks.

Whoa...

While a sweet and noble statement, its quite untimely! And really not needed!!

First, why agree to give anything away when your assertions could very well lead to the actions that would make you put your money where your mouth is?

Second, why not say, "Leaving aircraft on that side of the fence in 2015 is in violation of our contract and we will not accept concessions, nor furloughs, due to poor or lazy execution?"

If you advertise your willingness to give things up to prevent furloughs, you can count on being told about the need to furlough. Its a classic legacy mgmt tactic, and our SWA mgmt is using more and more plays from that book.

 

[vixin]

Stay away from AMs. they are a weird group .......

He may just fit in. AM'ers are a different group.

 

[texman]

Whoa...

While a sweet and noble statement, its quite untimely! And really not needed!!

First, why agree to give anything away when your assertions could very well lead to the actions that would make you put your money where your mouth is?

Second, why not say, "Leaving aircraft on that side of the fence in 2015 is in violation of our contract and we will not accept concessions, nor furloughs, due to poor or lazy execution?"

If you advertise your willingness to give things up to prevent furloughs, you can count on being told about the need to furlough. Its a classic legacy mgmt tactic, and our SWA mgmt is using more and more plays from that book.

Dude you know where I was coming from. I said I would if needed. I didn't say the whole pilot group. This is my opinion only. SWAPA represents the whole pilot group. I know what it is like to be on the street, do you? So don't pop off on me brother. Are you upset that it might happen. Is your upgrade going to be delayed? If so I am tired of hearing all the whining of my upgrade, my upgrade! While us on the bottom can only hope to keep our job.

 

[Ty Webb]

Whoa...

While a sweet and noble statement, its quite untimely! And really not needed!!

First, why agree to give anything away when your assertions could very well lead to the actions that would make you put your money where your mouth is?

Second, why not say, "Leaving aircraft on that side of the fence in 2015 is in violation of our contract and we will not accept concessions, nor furloughs, due to poor or lazy execution?"

If you advertise your willingness to give things up to prevent furloughs, you can count on being told about the need to furlough. Its a classic legacy mgmt tactic, and our SWA mgmt is using more and more plays from that book.

Oh, lord!

I appreciate what you're saying, Texman.

 

[redflyer65]

I would say 60-65% of the people prefer PMs, so if you like AMs it like getting a pseudo seniority bump. They are pretty easy to get even if your junior (in any base).

Same is true for bidding AM or PM reserve if you are way down at the bottom.

 

[texman]

Oh, lord!

I appreciate what you're saying, Texman.

TY both groups need to find the unity with each other and the company. If we can do that, we will grow. Sometimes it gets old hearing the all about ME group .

 

[PropPiedmont]

Thanks for the break-down.

For us it would end up paying 7:40, since it's a single duty period, and we only have a duty period guarantee for those kinds of trips.

So, basically, someone who does 3 of those in a row over 4 days of flying (late evening to early morning), would make 23 hours, versus a normal 4-day for us paying between 22 and 24 hours.

At Southwest, it would seem 3 of those over 4 days of flying (3 duty periods) would be worth 27.3 Trips, and it seems your 3 days are worth at least that much, and your 4 days (which is how much flying we're talking about here) are worth a LOT more than that.

So the only pilots who would want them would either want to be home all day every day or just like night flying (like PCL). Otherwise, it looks like that would go junior for you guys because of the pay?

Here they usually they get dumped into open time as much as is allowed by our system; few want them. I'm sorry to see them coming to SWA, truthfully. They may be a money maker, but they're unsafe unless you get on a night rhythm and stay there or are just one of those night owl kind of people.

How senior do the A.M. lines usually go in say MCO or BWI? Alternately I guess you could bid OAK, LAS, or PHX since you're obviously not going to have redeyes to those cities, be more senior, drop most of your trips, and pick up regular trips in other bases... That commute will suck, though.

Expect all redeye pairings to pay the minmum rigs. 13, 19.5, & 26 tfp.
The redeye premium will most likely not override the min gaurantee.

 

[Ty Webb]

Reminds me of bad afternoon TV . . .

"But what about MY needs, Sally-Jessie Geraldo-Povitch"? :bawling:

Now that I think about it . . . Sign me up for those a.m. trips, would ya?

:laugh::laugh:

 

[texman]

Reminds me of bad afternoon TV . . .

"But what about MY needs, Sally-Jessie Geraldo-Povitch"? :bawling:

Now that I think about it . . . Sign me up for those a.m. trips, would ya?

:laugh::laugh:

I do AM's and they rock. I love getting in going to the BAR/RES for some R and R. I find PM's you are rushing to grab a drink before the bar closes to only lead to room party that has all swords in it. Long haul AM's are the best. Plus I commute.

 

[redflyer65]

Would that actually be called a 'Sword Party'?

 

[texman]

Would that actually be called a 'Sword Party'?

When I got here everyone was PM's are the best. Every PM I did had a bunch of Swords working the flight, yes a sword party. I like going outside the hotel to find the party. No company ink for me. Less Drama. PM's have Drama.

 

[scoreboardII]

PM's are becoming a question of "how late will we be today" ending up at the hotel with a closed bar.