SWAPA "AIP reached with Company"

[humveedriver]

The company can't have it both ways Humvee and that's were the rubber meets the road.

They want to pay the same for the MAX? Fine, but why would the FAA mandate subsets on NG/Max then?

I believe the FAA will hold firm on this and it will definitely help in our argument that it needs a re-opener.

There are enough systems/cockpit differences that they FAA won't want to mix a classic plane into the NG/MAX arena. Just my opinion.

I just think there is a lot of precedent that will not be in favour of SWAPA. The 717 looked like a DC9 and earned you a DC9 type rating. But the 717 had MD-11 avionics and glass, totally computerized/automated electrical system and RR engines. Talk about night and day. I think the stick shaker motor on the yoke was the same. Both paid the same. No way you could take an oral/sim on one and expect to fly the other. Other airplanes were specifically designed to share training commonality 757/767, but those planes typically pay differently since the 76 holds a lot more. I just think the training issue isn't going to be equated to the pay issue since it's essentially the new version of the same plane. i understand what you saying. But I don't view it as leverage. In 2017 with no new contract and max training with a max trip down to Belize on my schedule, I don't think the company will be parking any planes. They will tell us to grieve it, if we feel that the max should reopen the contract that will be 5 years past its amendable date.

 

[PCL_128]

I'm not sure why you don't understand this, red: the contract is already open. You can't re-open something twice.

 

[fletch717]

I haven't read the TA but I'm a big YES vote.

 

[SWA Bubba]

I'm still trying to figure out why so many SWA pilots feel the 737MAX is an un negotiated fleet type? None of us have seen the cockpit. I think most of us assume that we will not have to receive a new type rating to fly it (merely differences training). I've looked at our contract. Unlike other contracts I've seen, the SWA contract does not have pay rates for other aircraft. There is a side letter for 717 pay rates that equal 737 rates. And a side letter that says the -800 will pay the same as the -700. So if SWA orders 737MAX-7's and 737MAX-8's why would this not pay the 737 rate? I'm the last person to carry the company's water, but even I don't think three letters M-A-X is going to win us a grievance/arbitration.

The reason why they believe the -Max is an "unnegotiated fleet type" is because Paragraph 1.M. of the contract requires reopening the contract in the event the company acquires "for its use any type of aircraft other than the B717, B737-300, B737-500, B737-700, and the B737-800..." Already-negotiated 737 variants are specifically listed. Insomuch as the -Max is not one of those types, it requires a contract reopener. The reopener is for the "...purpose of negotiating wages, rates of pay, relocation expenses, bidding, and hours or conditions of employment particularly applicable to the specific situation."

To answer your other question about why we don't have different rates for our different types yet, it's only because we negotiated that. The reason we agreed to have the same rate for a -800 (larger AC), is to justify having the same rate for a 717 (smaller AC). My feeling is that if the union had known that we weren't going to keep the 717s, we would have insisted on a higher rate for the -800s. Regardless, per the contract, the rates have to be negotiated for each new type--even new variants of the 737. Hence we opened the contract for the -800, and produced a side letter to show the agreement reached.

Also, the same contract paragraph also says: "If the FAA, or the Company, or other competent authority restricts any current aircraft type to a subset of pilots, other than ETOPS, this paragraph shall apply.". Since the word (from the training center) is that the FAA will require restrictions on SW pilots flying which variant, this would also trigger the reopener.

Unless the -Max is being negotiated right now in this current section six (which seems unlikely, since that hasn't even been mentioned), then the contract will have to be reopened, again, to negotiate -Max specifics.

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

I'm not sure why you don't understand this, red: the contract is already open. You can't re-open something twice.

Yes, it is open. However, unless the 737-Max is being negotiate in this current section six ( I think unlikely, since neither side has even mentioned this), it will have to be opened again to accommodate that. And since the first -Max delivery is still more than 2 years away, and we're in federal mediation for our section six already, it seems unlikely that it will still be open when that time comes.

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

I haven't read the TA but I'm a big YES vote.

Good for you! It's just a waste of time reading stuff.

Bubba

 

[PCL_128]

Yes, it is open. However, unless the 737-Max is being negotiate in this current section six ( I think unlikely, since neither side has even mentioned this), it will have to be opened again to accommodate that. And since the first -Max delivery is still more than 2 years away, and we're in federal mediation for our section six already, it seems unlikely that it will still be open when that time comes.



Bubba

I can't imagine that the company is going up TA an agreement that doesn't address these issues. If they do, they're a lot more incompetent than I give them credit for.

 

[humveedriver]

The reason why they believe the -Max is an "unnegotiated fleet type" is because Paragraph 1.M. of the contract requires reopening the contract in the event the company acquires "for its use any type of aircraft other than the B717, B737-300, B737-500, B737-700, and the B737-800..." Already-negotiated 737 variants are specifically listed. Insomuch as the -Max is not one of those types, it requires a contract reopener. The reopener is for the "...purpose of negotiating wages, rates of pay, relocation expenses, bidding, and hours or conditions of employment particularly applicable to the specific situation."

To answer your other question about why we don't have different rates for our different types yet, it's only because we negotiated that. The reason we agreed to have the same rate for a -800 (larger AC), is to justify having the same rate for a 717 (smaller AC). My feeling is that if the union had known that we weren't going to keep the 717s, we would have insisted on a higher rate for the -800s. Regardless, per the contract, the rates have to be negotiated for each new type--even new variants of the 737. Hence we opened the contract for the -800, and produced a side letter to show the agreement reached.

Also, the same contract paragraph also says: "If the FAA, or the Company, or other competent authority restricts any current aircraft type to a subset of pilots, other than ETOPS, this paragraph shall apply.". Since the word (from the training center) is that the FAA will require restrictions on SW pilots flying which variant, this would also trigger the reopener.

Unless the -Max is being negotiated right now in this current section six (which seems unlikely, since that hasn't even been mentioned), then the contract will have to be reopened, again, to negotiate -Max specifics.

Bubba

Thanks for showing me where to find the language. Considering the date the max order was made, I can't imagine why the max wouldn't be included in the AIP. Since the company (or FAA depending on who you talk to) is pushing for subsets, I'm confident it will be addressed. The million dollar question remaining will be did the Company pony up enough cash to pay for the section 1 concessions? Maybe. I was impressed with the offer to buy my seniority during the SLI. So we will see. You answered my original question though.

 

[Tripower455]

I haven't read the TA but I'm a big YES vote.

You're assimilating nicely, since that's precisely what most OSW pilots do!

 

[FlyinGuy]

Max will be in the TA. Just like paltry raises, a bonus scheme, Section 1 givebacks, along with a few hidden work rule gems that will only be discovered after you are bent over by scheduling!!

Hint to those of you that just want a deal. Watch out for the smoke and mirrors boys cuz' the show is about to begin!!