SWAdude, cheesemo, chase? LOGGING PIC ON PLANE WITH THREE PILOTS

[thebluto]

There's been some discussion of logging PIC on the board, especially on the following threads:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=44838

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=44165

I've got an issue to raise about military aircraft with three pilots aboard. This has been batted around a number of times, and I've seen guys get interviewed and hired (specifically at SWA) by looking at it two different ways.

We all know if you didn't sign for the airplane, you are not the PIC. So, many folks I know claim that if you signed for the airplane, you are the PIC, regardless if you went to the back of the plane to take a nap, get coffee, go potty, etc.

I believe chase mentioned in one of the posts above, that you shouldn't log time in the rack, etc. I can buy this line of reasoning also. And, I know a couple of guys at SWA who calculated their hours this way, but I know more that counted all of their Aircraft Commander time, in or out of the seat as PIC.

But, here is the issue: If you're not supposed to count the time out of the seat as PIC when you signed for the plane, does that mean there's no PIC during that portion of the flight?

Example: The plane was airborne for 9 hours. 3 hours of that time the Aircraft Commander who signed for the plane is out of the seat. So, only 6 hours of it can be claimed as PIC by anyone if he or she is out of the seat.

Seems a little odd to me. The two pilots flying can't log it, because they didn't sign for the plane, but the AC can't count it because he or she is not flying.

So, does that mean the plane is airborne for 3 hours without a PIC?

It doesn't really matter to me personally. With the .3 per sortie conversion at SWA, I've got 2540 hours PIC turbine with all my time as Aircraft Commander, and 2350 if I don't count 1/3 of my P-3 PIC time. It's not going to make or break me in relation to 1000 hours PIC or whatever the competitive number is now.

I know we could go around and around about this all day. Arguing who's a better pilot, how worthless this or that type of plane is, civ vs mil, etc. But, I think there's a definite gray area here for a small segment of us in the military.

 

[RogerMOSA]

Bluto - Just FYI, I interviewed last week. SWA had absolutely no problems with my logbook. My PIC time in the P-3 included the time spent out of the seat. They know all about how we fly the Skypig.

RM

 

[chase]

thebluto

The definitive answer is always the PD, give them a call & explain it to them....relying on any of the words of anonymous folks to give you advice on a career decision (logging of flight time) is a dangerous position to be in.

As you said you have plenty of PIC time so don't sweat it....kind of like driving without proof of insurance in your car....you know you have it but if the cop stops you & starts asking questions & you don't have it....then things get dicey. Different interviewers may look at it differently so that is why I always plan for the worse...the guy/gal who will ask the hard questions, "were you sleeping in the back when you logged any of this time?"...if you answer no then they know you're lying....if you say yes but didn't nominally remove some time accouting for that then you look like you're trying to pull a fast one.

Make one's best guess & don't get caught quibbling over a hundred or so hours that shouldn't be a point of contention. My opinion & others aren't what is important....it is the person you're trying to explain your story to & there is no way to know what questions or issues they will bring up....that is why I always recommend taking the more conservative approach when it comes to multi-seat aircraft & the logging of PIC time.

The scenarios for military & civilians are endless so again contact the PD for the definitive word or take the conservative approach. Yes we have hired folks who may have gotten through the interview without being asked the tough question....as Clint would say..."Do you feel lucky punk....well do you??" Cheers & Merry Christmas,

 

[thebluto]

Okay chase, I called the PD. RK says to count all of it. If you signed for the plane, it's all your PIC.

Thanks for the holiday greetings. Hope you have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

 

[Keydet]

Bluto,

Yeah, I know, P-3s are gay. Okay, got another riddle for you and twist to this neverending discussion. If one of us were to go back to VP (yeah right) and logged PIC the whole time we were there, eventually our A time column would exceed the total pilot time column in our Navy logbooks. So now what?

 

[thebluto]

Bluto,

Yeah, I know, P-3s are gay. Okay, got another riddle for you and twist to this neverending discussion. If one of us were to go back to VP (yeah right) and logged PIC the whole time we were there, eventually our A time column would exceed the total pilot time column in our Navy logbooks. So now what?

Get out of the Navy

 

[Keydet]

Thanks, Confucius. That was sheer brilliance. What other gems ya got? If it's the one about going to sleep with itchy butt, I've already heard it.

 

[BHS]

I spoke with LL about this very issue a couple of weeks ago, since I fly alot of International Relief Officer (IRO). I am a cruise captain only. She said that that time is not counted if not on the release as a P.I.C.

 

[dogg]

I am confused........ If you are a co-pilot in the military and the captain bails for a while you can log it as PIC but if you are a typed current and qualified co-pilot in the civilian world and the captain bails you can't...... Maybe I am missing something( and I am aware that co-pilot is not a term that is used in the military. but if you are not the AC than that is what you are.....)

 

[thebluto]

dogg, just the opposite

When I called the PD, RK told me all of the time as aircraft commander counts as PIC, including the time out of the seat. The "co-pilot" can't log any of the time as PIC. If you didn't sign for the airplane, it's not your PIC.



Keydet, I'll migrate my comments about your concerns to the military transition board.