SWA weight and balance

[c9skytrain]

We recently had a jumpseater denied for W&B out of SFO. The kicker is he was denied by the ops agent even before the crew was on the airplane. As I have not crossed the divide yet, a question: Does the ops agent do weight and balance?

How and an airplane weighing 150,000+ lbs not be able to find a spare 200 lbs? Run the engines for a minute. Not trying to stir anything up, but I was wondering just how much power the ops agent have.

The flight was SFO-ATL.

 

[humveedriver]

We recently had a jumpseater denied for W&B out of SFO. The kicker is he was denied by the ops agent even before the crew was on the airplane. As I have not crossed the divide yet, a question: Does the ops agent do weight and balance?

How and an airplane weighing 150,000+ lbs not be able to find a spare 200 lbs? Run the engines for a minute. Not trying to stir anything up, but I was wondering just how much power the ops agent have.

The flight was SFO-ATL.

The ops agent at SWA is a human ACARS. They do the w&b and determine what can go and what stays. Normally cargo comes off first before revenue and bags. See this from time to time DAL-HOU, especially with a -300, -500. Surprised it was that tight on the long haul, but I'm guessing they had an alternate. But without starting a thread of capts authority vs the op agent; yes SWA has delegated that job to the ops agent, relative to my last two airlines.

 

[densoo]

An aircraft that is "weight restricted" is generally known well ahead of time by dispatchers, ops, and gate agents as it will affect how many seats are held open to comply the restriction even if they have to deny boarding to some revenue passengers. Different airlines have different policies when it comes to whether the jumpseat is figured in before or after calculating how many cabin seats must remain open to comply with the weight restriction. If it's before then the jumpseat can always be used and one more pax stays behind. Conversely if it is not used they can put one more passenger on. If it's after then the jumpseat won't get on unless they is one more open cabin seat than required to meet the restriction.

 

[DX Jake]

We recently had a jumpseater denied for W&B out of SFO. The kicker is he was denied by the ops agent even before the crew was on the airplane. As I have not crossed the divide yet, a question: Does the ops agent do weight and balance?

How and an airplane weighing 150,000+ lbs not be able to find a spare 200 lbs? Run the engines for a minute. Not trying to stir anything up, but I was wondering just how much power the ops agent have.

The flight was SFO-ATL.

c9skytrain:

If you have any questions about this, send me a private message. Although I didn't release that flight, I have a SFO-ATL flight today and I can explain why the flight may have an issue with weight (no close alternates, fuel for mountain wave avoidance, etc. etc.)

Ops agents at SWA "pre-flight". This means they review the release and run a scenario based on the fuel I plan, freight for the flight, etc. etc. I can expound if you wish.

Happy Holidays

 

[GIZMONC]

Absolutely when the ops agent goes the initial W&B, they figure total pax, total bags, total fuel, weight of the AC plus the crew. Add it all up even the adjustments for child's weights (pray you have at least few every child weight gives you 100 adjustment ( minus). If you total all that weight including the carryons if the Takeoff WT is over the ATOG. You start taking off NR, Jumpseats and then cargo. Bags and Pax take priority. If disptach will not change either take off or landing and adjust fuel you are pretty much locked in. SWA uses a Boeing interface to calculate TRIM. Even if the number of bags in Zone A if overweight OTIS ( inhouse system) it will tell you to move bags. So if to comes down to not allowing a jumpseater that is what happens. Otis is so programmed that if you are out of trim it will not print a loading schedule for the pilots. Try doing a 500 with full pax load (122) 180 bags, 25.0 fuel weight with HIGH temp you will leave more than a jumpseater behind. Last summer STL SAN was making a daily fuel stop usuallly at AMA since dispatch was keeping a 500 on that route. I have left up to 15 pax behind.

 

[CRJ puppy]

Additionally an experienced ops agent friend at SWA told me that they were having w&b issues with the 800's and the way they configure and load them. He indicated that it was a real pain and that they were trying to rework the system so it wasn't such a problem. But no solution yet...

 

[c9skytrain]

Does the CA have the power to say "look, we will make sure we burn enough gas on the way out , put him on the JS?
What happens when SWA (we) start doing int'l and there are no SWA ops agents? Start using ACARS? Once that door is opened, the company will see they can use ACARS everywhere and save bu getting rid of the Ops agents.

 

[humveedriver]

Does the CA have the power to say "look, we will make sure we burn enough gas on the way out , put him on the JS?
What happens when SWA (we) start doing int'l and there are no SWA ops agents? Start using ACARS? Once that door is opened, the company will see they can use ACARS everywhere and save bu getting rid of the Ops agents.

The ops agents are painfully aware they may not have a job in the future. Some of these folks have been with the company a while and really like the job. I want to say there are 1500 or so of them. Just had this conversation with one on my commute in. From the ones I have met, they are great folks and I hope they find alternate positions when that time comes. The ops agent I talked to said he saw us turn our 737 on a charter in 20 mins, while his SWA charter to the same city pair took about an hour do to complications with w&b. I believe the above posts address some of the unique problems the SWA w&b system encounters. I'm guessing that because of the cargo SWA transports, their W&b is more detailed/accurate and not an indexed (conservative average) system that AT uses.

 

[madjack]

"Does the CA have the power to say "look, we will make sure we burn enough gas on the way out , put him on the JS? "

IF the OPS agent needs more lift the Dispatch release ATOG can be changed by filing a different route (longer) and/or a lower altitude...all to increase fuel burn/load (ATOG)...CP/Dispatcher must agree...once airborne the crew can fly whatever route/alt is required...

 

[737tanker]

How and an airplane weighing 150,000+ lbs not be able to find a spare 200 lbs? Run the engines for a minute

If it is a -700 or -800 then you are correct. However a lot of the weight & balance issues are with the -300 Zero Fuel Weight. Another thing is that burning gas on the ground for any aircraft won't help because the fuel weight that the computer uses is after the planned taxi fuel has been deleted, and the computer won't release the loadsheet unless the aircraft is ATOG or lower.
Basically 99% of the Ops Agent will come to the Captain if the problem is ATOG (either based on landing or takeoff) but if it is a ZFW issue they handle it themselves as adjusting fuel or using the current ATIS temp won't help.

 

[StopNTSing]

Does the CA have the power to say "look, we will make sure we burn enough gas on the way out , put him on the JS?
What happens when SWA (we) start doing int'l and there are no SWA ops agents? Start using ACARS? Once that door is opened, the company will see they can use ACARS everywhere and save bu getting rid of the Ops agents.

That might be an option assuming you're not bumping up against max zero-fuel weight.

 

[airplane wizard]

What is ATOG?

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Additionally an experienced ops agent friend at SWA told me that they were having w&b issues with the 800's and the way they configure and load them. He indicated that it was a real pain and that they were trying to rework the system so it wasn't such a problem. But no solution yet...

Uh-oh.....trouble with the "heavy" jet??

 

[humveedriver]

What is ATOG?

Allowable take off gross weight. ATOG is always equal to or less the MTOW. We don't use the term at AirTran.

 

[SWAdude]

If there are not any limitations and you have a cooperative ops agent (usually they are cool with working to get anyone on the plane) I will call up dispatch and work with them. There are exceptions but most the time we can work it out.

Just had this happen the other night. And we got the Delta pilot home for Christmas. Everyone was happy to work it out.

 

[GIZMONC]

Additionally an experienced ops agent friend at SWA told me that they were having w&b issues with the 800's and the way they configure and load them. He indicated that it was a real pain and that they were trying to rework the system so it wasn't such a problem. But no solution yet...

800's which have 175 seats are a ROYAL PAIN IN THE A _ _. I had one last evening booked at 86. SWA does not want to move any passengers so you load to the best of your ability with a preflight, load up the passengers and hope you did it right. Add in the 3 zones for pax weight and DAMN, you have to move 26 bags from FWD to AFT to get in TRIM. Seems to me it would be much easier to have pax sit more forward since the 800 is tail heavy by nature.

 

[humveedriver]

Open seating on the stubby -200 forty years ago was probably a great idea. Maybe not so much now with the longer tubes.

 

[Lear70]

Open seating on the stubby -200 forty years ago was probably a great idea. Maybe not so much now with the longer tubes.

Hush yo mouth!

 

[SWA GUY]

I usually just pick up the phone and call dispatch to let them know I will burn more taxi fuel than the standard flight plan says. The jump seater gets on every time.

A little out-da-box thinking keeps everyone happy, and traveling.

 

[Just thinking]

Do other 800 operators have this same issue?