Talked to HR last week. They said they only accept PIC time whe you sign for airplane. But from the website "Southwest Airlines further allows logging of PIC as follows: For an aircraft requiring a type rating: If both pilots are type rated, the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC." I work for a 91 frac, have a type, and fly from the left seat. That certainly fits the statement above. My question is if they won't allow this time why do they have this statement on the site?
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I'm not the expert but certainly contact the people department to get the straight ruling but I'll take your post & try to get an "official answer" from the folks who do know. Here is the "clarification" that might make it easier to understand.
As the website says, flying from the left seat as sole manimupaltor of the controls is generally interpreted as the person who signs for the aircraft also. Since most CAs fly in the left seat the logic applies & even when both folks are typed, the most common practice among most pilots is that whoever flies in the left seat is also signing for the aircraft.
When doesn't this happen? When someone is getting upgraded to the left seat & the IP is sitting in the right seat...the IP is signing for the aircraft. What SWA is attempting to do I believe is to eliminate the crews who under their work rules logged PIC time since both folks were type qualified...this can't happen from SWA's standpoint...either you signed for the aircraft or you didn't...if you did, you can log the PIC time, if you didn't, then it was PIC time or other time (observation, flying in the back, etc.)
What I would do is if you have not broken your time out into this type of trackign system then do the best you can to give yourself a reasonable proportion of PIC time when you were flying under your company rules...take 50% for example if you believe you can answer the question truthfully & your log books can pass the test. Again, be conservative & don't try to fudge the numbers...it isn't worth the risk & more importantly it isn't what SWA is looking for.
Pretty simple, sit in the left seat & signed for aircraft=PIC time
Sit in right seat, signed for aircraft=PIC time
Sit in left or right seat, didn't sign for aircraft=SIC time
Hope that helps,
As the website says, flying from the left seat as sole manimupaltor of the controls is generally interpreted as the person who signs for the aircraft also. Since most CAs fly in the left seat the logic applies & even when both folks are typed, the most common practice among most pilots is that whoever flies in the left seat is also signing for the aircraft.
When doesn't this happen? When someone is getting upgraded to the left seat & the IP is sitting in the right seat...the IP is signing for the aircraft. What SWA is attempting to do I believe is to eliminate the crews who under their work rules logged PIC time since both folks were type qualified...this can't happen from SWA's standpoint...either you signed for the aircraft or you didn't...if you did, you can log the PIC time, if you didn't, then it was PIC time or other time (observation, flying in the back, etc.)
What I would do is if you have not broken your time out into this type of trackign system then do the best you can to give yourself a reasonable proportion of PIC time when you were flying under your company rules...take 50% for example if you believe you can answer the question truthfully & your log books can pass the test. Again, be conservative & don't try to fudge the numbers...it isn't worth the risk & more importantly it isn't what SWA is looking for.
Pretty simple, sit in the left seat & signed for aircraft=PIC time
Sit in right seat, signed for aircraft=PIC time
Sit in left or right seat, didn't sign for aircraft=SIC time
Hope that helps,
Chase, a month or so ago I talked to you on the phone about my PIC confusion. I like your explanation a whole lot; it’s logical and very straight forward. Maybe the SWA application website needs to be slightly revised? How about:
3 Southwest Airlines defines "Pilot in Command" as: sit in the left seat & sign for aircraft = PIC time; Sit in right seat & sign for aircraft = PIC time; Sit in left or right seat but didn't sign for aircraft = SIC time.
AV80R
Ps. Thanks for your time and your advice.
3 Southwest Airlines defines "Pilot in Command" as: sit in the left seat & sign for aircraft = PIC time; Sit in right seat & sign for aircraft = PIC time; Sit in left or right seat but didn't sign for aircraft = SIC time.
AV80R
Ps. Thanks for your time and your advice.
The only mentor program I'm aware of that involves Southwest Airline pilots is the one that involves new hires being matched up with pilots at Southwest with similar background & experiences.
There are two scholarship programs I'm aware that award 737 types to SWA wannabees through the Organization of Black Airline Pilots and Women in Aviation. I'm not sure what it takes to qualify to apply for these "scholarships" but you can find them on the web I'm sure with a search.
Don't know if that answers your questions but hopefully it does.
There are two scholarship programs I'm aware that award 737 types to SWA wannabees through the Organization of Black Airline Pilots and Women in Aviation. I'm not sure what it takes to qualify to apply for these "scholarships" but you can find them on the web I'm sure with a search.
Don't know if that answers your questions but hopefully it does.
English
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Southwest had a mentoring program in 2000/2001 called, I think, "Take-off". It was a program for folks that didn't meet the minimums yet, I believe. I have a copy of a newsletter that was published as well as a letter stating I would be assigned a mentor, but it never happened. Lilah Steen was in charge of it at the time, I believe. I emailed her a couple of years later about, after having changed my address several times, and she said the program was no longer, but that it might be started up again in the future.
That's all I know and/or remember about the program. Sorry for the vagueness.
That's all I know and/or remember about the program. Sorry for the vagueness.
GogglesPisano
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"What about CFI time when the student is rated (PPL) and manipulating the controls?"
My understanding is that unless your student was pretty wealthy and was getting flight instruction in a Turbine aircraft that flight time is not really important from SWA perspective. I have hundreds of hours "dual given" PIC but it's not turbine but rather in Cessnas, Pipers, Dutchess, etc. I might be wrong but that's how I read the Requirements below:
Southwest Airlines New Pilot Requirements
Flight Experience:
2500 hours total or 1500 hours TURBINE total. Additionally, a minimum of 1000 hours in Turbine aircraft as the Pilot in command3, as defined by FAR PART I is required. Southwest considers only Pilot time in fixed wing aircraft. This specifically excludes simulator, helicopter, WSO, RIO, FE, NAV, EWO etc. NO other time is counted.3
My understanding is that unless your student was pretty wealthy and was getting flight instruction in a Turbine aircraft that flight time is not really important from SWA perspective. I have hundreds of hours "dual given" PIC but it's not turbine but rather in Cessnas, Pipers, Dutchess, etc. I might be wrong but that's how I read the Requirements below:
Southwest Airlines New Pilot Requirements
Flight Experience:
2500 hours total or 1500 hours TURBINE total. Additionally, a minimum of 1000 hours in Turbine aircraft as the Pilot in command3, as defined by FAR PART I is required. Southwest considers only Pilot time in fixed wing aircraft. This specifically excludes simulator, helicopter, WSO, RIO, FE, NAV, EWO etc. NO other time is counted.3
enigma
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Here's my version. SWA defines "Pilot In Command" as: the time which you were the pilot who was ultimately responsible TO THE AIRCRAFT OPERATOR, not the regulatory body, for the aircraft and it's mission. I think that this is what they are trying to accomplish, so why not say it this way?AV80R said:Chase, a month or so ago I talked to you on the phone about my PIC confusion. I like your explanation a whole lot; it’s logical and very straight forward. Maybe the SWA application website needs to be slightly revised? How about:
3 Southwest Airlines defines "Pilot in Command" as: sit in the left seat & sign for aircraft = PIC time; Sit in right seat & sign for aircraft = PIC time; Sit in left or right seat but didn't sign for aircraft = SIC time.
AV80R
Ps. Thanks for your time and your advice.
With rare exception, (some corporate operators who expect both pilots to be responsible) the operator does hold one pilot responsible. It's that simple. If you were the one that would do the carpet dance in the bosses office after a screw up, you were the PIC.
regards,
enigma
I spoke to someone who really knows (I only sound like I know sometimes)...he clarified the situation when two folks who are both typed (civilians) in an aircraft, who gets the PIC time.
In this case the person who is typed (I'm assuming they both are) that is sitting in the left seat gets to log PIC time. If the crew flies 6 legs with switches occurring after each leg & each leg is 1.0 hr long, each pilot will be able to log 3 hrs of PIC time & 3 hours of SIC time.
Hope that helps.
In this case the person who is typed (I'm assuming they both are) that is sitting in the left seat gets to log PIC time. If the crew flies 6 legs with switches occurring after each leg & each leg is 1.0 hr long, each pilot will be able to log 3 hrs of PIC time & 3 hours of SIC time.
Hope that helps.
chase,
Is this in writing some where? L Lang was the one who told me that you had to sign for the airplane to be counted as PIC. I just don't want to so up for the interview and find out that the PIC time that I logged doesn't count or worse that it looked like I lied about my time!. Reply here or pm me.
thanx
Is this in writing some where? L Lang was the one who told me that you had to sign for the airplane to be counted as PIC. I just don't want to so up for the interview and find out that the PIC time that I logged doesn't count or worse that it looked like I lied about my time!. Reply here or pm me.
thanx
johnny taliban
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to log or not to log, that is the question
Jetlag,
for what its worth, I have always been advised not to logg time as PIC if you are the "junior" pilot (regardless of being typed) simply because you never know for sure who the person is that is going to be reviewing your logbook. That person's perception of what is legitimate PIC time and what is not will be impossible for you to determine and you are really rolling the dice if you count time that could be called into question. I know that sux but I would be VERY conservative when it comes to logging time. I myself was tempted to log turbine PIC immediately after I was typed but followed the advise of those with more experience then me and I look back now and know that I made the right decision.
Johnny
Jetlag,
for what its worth, I have always been advised not to logg time as PIC if you are the "junior" pilot (regardless of being typed) simply because you never know for sure who the person is that is going to be reviewing your logbook. That person's perception of what is legitimate PIC time and what is not will be impossible for you to determine and you are really rolling the dice if you count time that could be called into question. I know that sux but I would be VERY conservative when it comes to logging time. I myself was tempted to log turbine PIC immediately after I was typed but followed the advise of those with more experience then me and I look back now and know that I made the right decision.
Johnny
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