SWA question for Chase

[GC1B Flyer]

Hey Chase,

I've read the requirements on the website, and heard everyone else's "official interpretation" on the requirement, but here's my question....

With regard to Turbine PIC, most of us in the fractional industry that are F/O's and typed in the aircraft are logging PIC time for those legs that we actually fly. True...we aren't the "assigned" PIC, but this is how a good portion of the F/O's log the time anyway. It's a slow climb to upgrade for most of us, so every hour helps!

Is Southwest truly counting this time as PIC?

many thanks,
GC1B

 

[Ted Striker]

Hey Chase,

I've read the requirements on the website, and heard everyone else's "official interpretation" on the requirement, but here's my question....

With regard to Turbine PIC, most of us in the fractional industry that are F/O's and typed in the aircraft are logging PIC time for those legs that we actually fly. True...we aren't the "assigned" PIC, but this is how a good portion of the F/O's log the time anyway. It's a slow climb to upgrade for most of us, so every hour helps!

Is Southwest truly counting this time as PIC?

many thanks,
GC1B

I am sure Chase and/or others can give a better answer, but it is my interpretation that they do not want you counting that time unless you are "sigining" for the aircraft. Whoever is listed as Captain for that flight gets the PIC, even if both are typed. But....I could be wrong!

 

[saabcaptain]

The People Department at SWA said any PIC time you claim should be time in which "you signed for the aircraft" so in the example you brought up you could not count the time as PIC.

 

[kelbill]

Lets face it. If you are a fractional guy/gal, or anywhere for that matter, who sat in the right seat as an FO for 5 years, never upgraded to Captain, but still logged all PIC because you were typed, SWA is getting scammed by you if you get hired here with a faulty app. Your logbook might have 2000 hours turbine PIC but if you weren't the boss, you are still an FO/SIC kind of guy/gal. I know what you are going through, but we want 1000 hours of "I'm the boss, turbine PIC" time, minimum. If you get asked about it at the interview, or they find out later, you will be canned. Keep your chin up and do what you have to do (legally) to get those PIC hours. Think about it this way, who got paid more on that leg?

 

[SWA/FO]

Just say "I'm the Boss" everytime you block out and then again when you block in and it will be official PIC.

Actually, I believe kellrobert is correct above. Just think how much 737 PIC time I've earned at SWA!

 

[AMRCostUnit]

From the SWA Careers website:


"3Southwest Airlines defines "Pilot in Command" as the Pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight. This definition is taken from PART I of the FAR. Southwest Airlines further allows logging of PIC as follows: For an aircraft requiring a type rating: If both pilots are type rated, the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC. If only one pilot is type rated only that pilot may log PIC, regardless of seat position. For aircraft not requiring a type rating: Only the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC."

It seems pretty clear but it says nothing about "signing for" the aircraft. I bring this up because there is always a twist:

As FB (First Officer B or cruise pilot) on international flights I sat in the left seat while the Captain was on break. I am typed, and sole manipulator of the controls. According to the above definition, my left seat time is PIC time.

Or is it?

That's my story and I am sticking to it!

Unit

 

[GC1B Flyer]

From the SWA Careers website:


"3Southwest Airlines defines "Pilot in Command" as the Pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight. This definition is taken from PART I of the FAR. Southwest Airlines further allows logging of PIC as follows: For an aircraft requiring a type rating: If both pilots are type rated, the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC. If only one pilot is type rated only that pilot may log PIC, regardless of seat position. For aircraft not requiring a type rating: Only the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC."

It seems pretty clear but it says nothing about "signing for" the aircraft. I bring this up because there is always a twist:

As FB (First Officer B or cruise pilot) on international flights I sat in the left seat while the Captain was on break. I am typed, and sole manipulator of the controls. According to the above definition, my left seat time is PIC time.

Or is it?

That's my story and I am sticking to it!

Unit

I'm still waiting on Chase to chime in here. I don't disagree with the rest of your explanations. As I previously said, I've READ the SW website (therefore, don't need it re-posted here) and heard everyone else's interpretation. I'm just wanting to hear from Chase, to get his side.

Note to Mr. KelBill: As far as "SW being scammed", I think that is a stretch. Our fractional operations are more involved than your 121 ops with two type-rated pilots. Don't take this the wrong way, but just to educate you a little, in our fractional ops, we are both typed and typically occupy the LEFT seat on our respective legs. It's not set in stone (i.e. SOPs), but most guys come up with a way to divide up the flying (some fly left seat all day, some swap every leg, some swap every 2-4 legs) and the majority of the "true" Captains that I fly with go with the plan that if it's your day in the left seat, you fly, you file, you check weather/notams, sign for the gas (that's the only "signing" we do here) and the "true" PIC assumes the SIC duties for that leg/day/etc by getting coffee, papers, ice, catering, clearance, preflight. Therefore, I wouldn't call it "scamming" Southwest, since we are acting as a PIC, even though we still aren't listed as PIC in our company.

Now, with respect to the SW pilot requirements that AMRCostUnit was so kind to post, it states that I CAN log PIC. If the People Department is interpreting this differently, then the website needs to be updated! I am only asking this so that I can be consistent with my logging versus what Southwest wants, that's all!

 

[chase]

I'll get back to this shortly, running out the door but as is any situation that requires "official" answers I always recommend the first stop is to call the PD...the ladies & guys there are always happy to speak to pilots...remember, the "people department"....they always have the straight skinny...nothing I say has any official policy so they are the EXPERTS & I highly recommend using them when a "real" answer is required....I'll get back to it shortly...sorry for the slip but gotta go...will respond later when I have more time.

 

[GC1B Flyer]

thanks, Chase, you're as official as it gets (at least on this website!).

GC1B

 

[learflyer]

I'm still waiting on Chase to chime in here. I don't disagree with the rest of your explanations. As I previously said, I've READ the SW website (therefore, don't need it re-posted here) and heard everyone else's interpretation. I'm just wanting to hear from Chase, to get his side.

Note to Mr. KelBill: As far as "SW being scammed", I think that is a stretch. Our fractional operations are more involved than your 121 ops with two type-rated pilots. Don't take this the wrong way, but just to educate you a little, in our fractional ops, we are both typed and typically occupy the LEFT seat on our respective legs. It's not set in stone (i.e. SOPs), but most guys come up with a way to divide up the flying (some fly left seat all day, some swap every leg, some swap every 2-4 legs) and the majority of the "true" Captains that I fly with go with the plan that if it's your day in the left seat, you fly, you file, you check weather/notams, sign for the gas (that's the only "signing" we do here) and the "true" PIC assumes the SIC duties for that leg/day/etc by getting coffee, papers, ice, catering, clearance, preflight. Therefore, I wouldn't call it "scamming" Southwest, since we are acting as a PIC, even though we still aren't listed as PIC in our company.

Now, with respect to the SW pilot requirements that AMRCostUnit was so kind to post, it states that I CAN log PIC. If the People Department is interpreting this differently, then the website needs to be updated! I am only asking this so that I can be consistent with my logging versus what Southwest wants, that's all!

Amen!! thanks for sticking up for us 5 yr + SIC's who are ONLY sic's because we were hired at the wrong time (well one or two are just bad pilots). You are correct. This is how most fractional "sic's" operate on a daily basis. Atleast at Options and at Citation Shares. Can't we just have this little sliver of hope by logging Sole Manipulator? I'm done whining now!

 

[Swerpipe]

Sole manipulator, a Part 61 definition

This has been discussed before at this website. However, if it applies to you you should call the PD and get it straight from them or Chase.
Southwest is interested in 1000 PIC turbine when you are designated PIC regardless of where you seat or even if you are sole manipulator, Part 1 definition. Who is "The Captain"? Who is ultimately responsible? There is always only one person that fits that definition and that is the person logging PIC turbine Part 1.
I can see that if a pilot is doing IOE he is ultimately responsible (designated PIC) but someone could argue that so is the Check Airman (ensuring the new Captain can be set loose). This should be a very small fraction of your experience however.
I can imagine your frustration about being an FO for 5 years at the fractionals. That is the reason why I have stayed with my job... Good luck...

 

[learflyer]

Yeah, i'm a little more frustrated now because I made a special column in my logbook entitled "sole manipulator" PIC. I only did it because SWA's website said it is okey dokey to log that as PIC, and anticipated an interview with them in the future. I've been around this biz for a long time, and I understand who the "real" PIC is, so i'll have to live with it until something changes. When I get to the interview a couple years down the road, i'll just explain to them that this is how I interpreted it and why my logbook is such a mess!!

 

[AMRCostUnit]

I can imagine your frustration about being an FO for 5 years ...

...or 12.5 years!

 

[chase]

One must remember what the intent of SWA is....we are looking for CA experienced, qualified individuals. One way to determine that is to write the quals to exclude those without the necessary experience to cover all situations, both military & civilian.

For military folks the issue is pretty clear...left seat, signs for aircraft, qual as AC (CA)...the exception to this is the EP who may not be in the left seat but is close enough to manipulate the controls & influence the flight (my words, not SWA's)...i.e not on the bunkbed sleeping which BTW goes the same for an AC logging PIC time in the back on racked out. Two IPS on a CT ride can't both log PIC time, you can swap legs & do it but don't assume the Form 5 (or Navy/Army version) will break it out if you don't.

For the civilians the waters are little murkier. Yes there are dual typed folks flying airplanes in the fractionals, 91/94 operations. Flying in the left seat yes makes it clearer but if one is new to the operations & is sitting in the seat just due to a generous CA, then your time there is a little questionable since he's there to bail you out if you get into trouble. Yes this is very gray interpretation & that is even more reason the EXPERTS need to be called...they're the PD at 214.792.4000 & they want to hear from you. My thoughts are meaningless & aren't justification to change a log book or to apply or not apply....they are the folks who will provide the definitive answers.

As I tell folks all the time, be conservative when it comes to showing your time....the quals on the website a exlusionary in nature, as are any qualifications...trying to "lawyer" them to suit your situtation could result in you getting all the way up to the interview & then having your hours questioned....it will be too late to then scream "Chase said it was OK"....go to the source & sleep easy at night...trust me on this one. Good luck

 

[kelbill]

GC1B Flyer,

don't get me wrong, I have nothing against any fractional. And by scamming, I simply mean not living up to the intent of the 1000hrs PIC. Like Chase just mentioned, we expect everyone to have "Run the Show" for at least 1000 hours before coming here. By run the show, I mean take Captain checkrides, make the calls on who sits where, be the first to get in trouble when a boo boo happens on the road with the plane, etc. That being said, I'll be the first to admit that the SWA definitions validate BOTH of our positions. I just looked at it again, and after feeling vindicated, I continue on and see the type rating stuff you mentioned, and see you vindicated.

From the notes at the bottome of the SWA employment page: Southwest Airlines defines "Pilot in Command" as the Pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight. This definition is taken from PART I of the FAR. Southwest Airlines further allows logging of PIC as follows: For an aircraft requiring a type rating: If both pilots are type rated, the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC. If only one pilot is type rated only that pilot may log PIC, regardless of seat position. For aircraft not requiring a type rating: Only the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC.

Good grief. Good luck.

 

[GC1B Flyer]

Chase,

Many thanks for your response. I'm not looking to lawyer my times, or anything like that, I just want my logbooks/application to be consistent with the website requirements.

Don't worry, I won't blame anything on you!!

That should pretty much end this thread, right here, right now.

GC-1B

 

[CRJ Driver]

Hey Chase,

I've read the requirements on the website, and heard everyone else's "official interpretation" on the requirement, but here's my question....

With regard to Turbine PIC, most of us in the fractional industry that are F/O's and typed in the aircraft are logging PIC time for those legs that we actually fly. True...we aren't the "assigned" PIC, but this is how a good portion of the F/O's log the time anyway. It's a slow climb to upgrade for most of us, so every hour helps!

Is Southwest truly counting this time as PIC?

many thanks,
GC1B

It's real simple guys, you FO's do you recive a Capt's paycheck, No, then no turbine PIC for you.

 

[learflyer]

Thanks, alot chase and all who responded. May I get u guys some Papers, Ice, and Coffee? Atleast these three things stand for PIC!

 

[Chest Rockwell]

This may be getting of the subject a bit. I do not know if any or all fractionals operate Part 135 or 121. But I do know of two cases where pilots were violated for logging PIC time in an aircraft they were rated for, but not qualified to be PIC by their employer. For example, everyone at SWA has a 737 type. You can only log PIC time if you are PIC qualified, which includes a current Class I medical and a current 121 appendix F proficiency check.

It's not paranoia if they're really out to get you.

CR

 

[GC1B Flyer]

It's real simple guys, you FO's do you recive a Capt's paycheck, No, then no turbine PIC for you.

Again , this post was addressed to Chase, not CRJDriver. As previously stated, I have heard plenty of interpretations from those who are vomiting forth their own guesses, and therefore, don't need more. Since you don't possess the required company knowledge that I desire, I didn't address it to you. Unless you work for the People Department of Southwest, or are otherwise respected here on this board (i.e.-Chase) for your factual opinions regarding Southwest, then don't bother responding to the questions not asked of you.

Merry Christmas,
GC-1B