SWA Interviewees w/o types - pls read

[chase]

SWA Interviewees w/wo types- pls read

To those who are desiring for an interview with SWA I'm offering you some unsolicited & non-company sponsored advice/observations(which means it is as worthless/valuable as you determine for yourself ). Getting hired by any airline I believe requires forward thinking these days & having the patience (& money) to stick with the plan. With SWA, if you hope to get hired in '04 or '05, then what will determine that fact are what decisions you are making in '03 to enhance your chances.

The PD are working hard to improve the app process & the PD folks will be as "user-friendly" after the new changes as they were before. In fact the changes will allow them to help folks out even more by freeing them to do what they like to do, talk to pilots who want to work with SWA. I'm not privy to the changes but have been told by many the changes will make the app process less stressful, easier & in turn permit the PD to communicate with ALL applicants more easily & quicker to get all info to everyone at the same time. It won't put boards like this out of business but everyone will be on the same sheet of music with less "mystery" to the app/interview/hiring process. That is a good thing.

So what's the big advice then chase? Assuming (no guarantees remember) SWA interviews about 900 folks (based upon needing about 300 pilots) next year what impact does that have on you who wish to interview with SWA. Well it depends on which "category" of applicant you fall into. The PD doesn't have any secret category, these are mine & mine alone but it breaks down very simply. I'm also going to speak about "waves". What do I mean? First wave : These are folks who apply from the date SWA says apps are accepted to 30 days after. Expect alot of apps to flood in from folks who are in category 2 (see below), i.e. furloughed folks with types & apps filled out, folks with jobs who have been waiting patiently with all squares filled...these types of folks. Some will be interviewed in '04 (remember we have quite a few folks already with all squares waiting for an interview call) but many will be in '05 Second wave: Those in category 3 & 4 (see below). This timeframe will be from 30-60 days after the window is opened to infinity or whenever SWA closes the app window again (unlikely considering the numbers SWA will need to hire)...the timeframe to getting called for interview is late '05 & beyond IMHO. How to get called sooner? Get on the first wave!!! Grab your surfboard & read on.

-- First category, those with apps/w/types already submitted before the 1 Apr '03 (originallly I said 1 Nov, '02, that was when the type requirement was reinstated, my apologies) deadline.
Best category to be in. Will probably get called sometime in '04 for an interview. My speculation, not the company's. You have the winning lottery ticket for interviews, still long way from a job but don't sell your ticket. You will be in the "first wave" also. Surfing is better & you're not bumping heads with all the other rookie surfers.

-- Second category
(if you don't have the PIC or min hours, skip to category 4 but don't be discouraged, read my comments about cat 4 folks)

Those with all the mins met, types in hand, APPS FILLED OUT & READY TO BE MAILED/DELIVERED TO SWA'S DOORSTEP THE FIRST DAY THEY ANNOUNCE THEY ARE TAKING APPS!! Assuming the automated system is in place you will still have to have everything ready to mail in like copies of licenses, type, log books, etc. There are many folks who say they are in this group but probably aren't because they may have procrastinated in getting one "small piece" completed & were waiting for the notice SWA was opening up the window before completing it. WRONG ANSWER!! As you are reading this if you can't pickup your small packet that documents each of the SWA requirements for an interview & place it next to the computer screen & say "ah-ha chase, I have it all right here!", then take yourself out of category two. For the folks in category two, the number just shrunk, good for you so feel good about completing the exercise. For those who just fell into category 3 you can do something about. GET ALL THE REQUIREMENTS NOW (COPY OF ALL RECORDS, LORS, ETC) & GET THE TYPE IF THAT IS WHAT IS KEEPING YOU FROM APPLYING!!! Why is this so important? Here's why.

If you want "a chance" to surf on the first wave or at the beginning of the 2nd wave, then you better be in this group. Will everyone in this group surf on the first wave? No. SWA probably won't be interviewing enough folks in '04 to get to all of these folks, again IMHO. But who knows, many of these folks who thought they could get in the first wave by saying they were ready to apply now find themselves in the third category.

--Third category. Those who are missing some element of the app process. Type : I'll schedule it when I hear SWA is announcing they have opened up their app window....do you think you're the only one thinking this thought? Many others will be trying to do the same thing as you. Don't like waiting in line at the grocery store? You'll hate this line even more. Will there be training available convenient to when you want it? Being delayed in getting the type may result in months or maybe even a year before getting called for an inteview because you missed the first wave or are in the middle of the pack in the 2nd wave. Getting the copy of high school/college diploma, driver's license, fill in the blank on what is missing : It won't take me long. Oh really? Ask your buds how long it took to track down that long lost training director who is now in Central America? Phone numbers, other info that will require you hours to research. Letters of references: Think you can get those quickly? Not. Pilots like writing only slightly less than having Feds on their jumpseats. Just trying to find out which prision your friends are at will take lots of letters to the different parole boards...get with it now!! You can see my drift. Don't procrastinate particularly if all you are lacking is ONE element of the app process. Not making the "first wave" & being on the 2nd wave can mean months or years before getting that seniority number. YOU HAVE COMPLETE CONTROL OF MOVING FROM CAT 3 TO CAT 2, NOT SWA, NOT THE FEDS, YOUR CURRENT EMPLOYER (assuming you have all the hour requirements, again a huge caveat, but see Category 4), ONLY YOU. Ask the guys at the bottom of the current pool if they would do anything over again & the #1 thing (assuming they had the mins all along) was applying sooner. You can't if you haven't gotten the requirements that you control completed. SWA won't come looking for you, believe me.

4th category - What's good about being in the last category? Lots actually. Here's why. Since you don't have the mins yet anyway you couldn't apply so you're out nothing other than blaming your folks for having you so late! If you're current & expect to stay current then you're golden. You have to build time anyway, so build it with PIC time in mind & keeping your record clean. So where's the good news chase? When you finally do have the mins (probably in '05) & can begin to see a possible SWA in your future there will be this to look forward: An automated system that will have been in place for 18-24 months with all the bugs worked out of it. The pool will be drained...ask the poolies & SWA & they all agree this won't happen again if at all possible...no fun. We will have been hiring for several years at an ever increasing pace with the pace really beginning to accelerate (some estimates show over 500 up to 700 pilots around the '06-'08 timeframe). This will allow the time from app to interview to job offer to return to the more reasonable timeframe of 6-8 months....good for you & your family....less stress. Probably many folks will have left the business because they couldn't afford to stay in it. Unfortunate for them but a reality none the less. Long range planning is still a must. If you don't have a roadmap to success then you have one to failure.

This mumbo-jumbo above is worth absolutely nothing since it doesn't guarantee a single thing. Another terrorist act, economic decline, aircraft accidents, etc. will reshuffle the deck immediately with far ranging effects. This is an ever changing business & business models need to change & adapt. I'm optimistic SWA will adapt to the changing landscape of the JBs, AirTrans, Songs of the world. We won't do it without folks who REALLY want to be at SWA. Getting hired at SWA isn't easy & we have turned away many super pilots/folks, many of whom have gone to our competitors. Look after your famly & self first. This "outline" for getting an interview at the earliest possible time doesn't come close to guaranteeing you a job, only your record, relationships & interview will allow that to occur. For those in the pool feel free to add/delete/justify/deny any of the above. We are depending on all of you in the pool upon your arrival to keep our company profitable & safe. Thanks for your patience & guidance to those who are attempting to follow your path. cheers & now get back to your families...STEP AWAY FROM THE COMPUTER SLOWLY & KEEP YOUR HANDS IN PLAIN SIGHT. TURN THE SWITCH OFF & HUG YOUR KIDS/SPOUSE/PET!!! later, & thanks for reading these ramblings,

 

[Swerpipe]

Heard this a long time before

Chase,

My aviation mentor who is a SWA pilot gave me your same presentation a few years ago. Thankfully, I followed his advice. I had to wait to have enough hours not only to apply to SWA but to be able to get the type at HPA without restrictions.
At the time, some of my friends thought I was crazy to spend that kind of money on a type rating and I still didn't have enough hours to apply for SWA. I finally had enough hours on Aug. 02' and I applied prior to the app window closing. By the time it opens again I'll probably have about 2000 hrs PIC turbine (not just the min 1000 hrs). I know some guys hesitate about getting the type rating and rightly so but if they ever see someone (like me) sneak up on line by making the move, they will sure regret the hesitation. I agree 150% with your assessment. Hopefully other SWA wannabees will listen...

 

[FearlessFreep]

Those are all good points Chase. I do think that there are some fundamental specifics about the interview process that you should inform all potential WN applicants about.

In this business I have noticed that there are basically two types of interviews:

Confirmation and Screening. In the confirmation interview the applicant is interviewed in a manner to determine that they are for lack of a better term "as advertised" and the employer is confirming that all the information they have on this individual is true, it is also to see if the individual will be able to work effectively with others at that company and will fit into the corporate culture. The precentage of individuals accepted is greater than those rejected for employment in this type of interview as screening for the interview is a integral part of the hiring process.

The screening interview takes mass amount of interviewees (In the case of WN ones that meet specific minimum requirements) and weeds or sifts through them, most are eliminated and the few remaining others accepted into employment with the company.

From my personal experience (typed-I bought it, 2 time loser) and the careful observation of many other people's experiences the WN interview is the screening type. There are fewer people that are accepted than rejected by their process.

In the past (I don't know what will happen at this point in time) WN interviewed everyone that met the minimum requirements, period. If you had the minimums you got an interview. That is further proof that WN utilizes the screening interview process.

I just feel it appropriate that people fully understand just what is at stake here if they go out and purchase a type rating. When you purchase that type rating you are buying a chance, as specified by some of the rough numbers mentioned by Chase, about a one third of a chance. Buying a type rating to get a job at WN is a gamble. Period. Do not spend the money if you are not willing to take the risk and/or if you take rejection too personally. If you have the opportunity to pick up the rating for free, or close to it (VA, work retraining programs, etc) then you may want to go for it. Just remember that you might have other opportunities in which your chance of employment is greater than one third i.e., getting a rating for a corporate job.

The last time that WN was interviewing this board was absolutely polluted with the emotional outpouring of individuals that were weeded out in this process, many taking it deeply personal. I am sure that all of them were good honest hard working people that would have been an asset to WN. For some unknown reason they did not make the cut, and were unceremoniously weeded out and cast aside. At that point in time some of those individuals did not have type ratings. One can only imagine how much worse it would be if they had
spent money on a type.

I don't like to see people suffer and this industry has seen more than it's share of misfortune and misery. I just want people to realize just what they are getting themselves into by purchasing a type rating with the specific intent of getting hired by WN.

It is not my intention to enter into any rancorous conversation about my opinion of the hiring process at WN. I just feel deeply that people fully understand what is at stake when they buy a type rating with the intent of getting hired at WN.

Caveat Emptor, Let the buyer beware.

Take Care & Good Luck To Us All!

 

[LEROY]

Thanks for all the excellent info, Chase. You always seem to tell it like it is, and I and many others, I'm sure, read that stuff like the Gospel. I have a question, though. What about the guys who applied in April of 2001 (or earlier) without a Type, the guys who were called in April-May of 2002 by LL saying they would probably be in the next interview cycle? Has it become a situation where those without Types are removed from "the stack?" Has the stack of non-types been relegated? I can't afford to get a type rating today (or next year, FWIW). But I'd like to think that since I've been in the system for so long I might be granted the slightest degree of consideration.

Flameproof suit on, fire away, but just looking for some folks' insights.

 

[chase]

Fearless,

You're analysis is exactly right. For those who have read previous posts of mine I believe the tone when it comes to purchasing the type does equate as you say, a gamble. I would agree completely & folks DO need to know that. If one can't afford the "gamble" then one has determined that SWA isn't in their future. No harm, no foul. SWA has lost many good folks through their interview process & they are still good folks, like yourself. Several folks I have worked with didn't get the call for employment after what I thought were good chances.

Your assessment of the interview process is interesting. While I'm not on the interview team and haven't been behind the curtain on the details my best assessment is that the interview process is more than just a "screening process". At any point along during the process, i.e. interview, background check, employment verification, LORs, decision board, a "screening" occurs in a manner of speaking. Folks can make it through each of these phases but be "screened" out due to a variety of reasons at any particular point. The reasons can be many & they have been discussed in the past on here. Some are in the applicant's control, i.e. old LORs that haven't been updated, inaccurate credit info, dishonesty on previous employment info, bad interview skills. Other reasons are outside the applicants control, i.e. meeting the mins but not enough flying experience, previous legal problems that may not be explainable in a clear/concise manner, etc.

The reality is that SWA won't choose all of the applicants & as you state it maybe as low as 33%, it could be higher or lower. There is no number that SWA shoots for at decision boards. The number of applicants that SWA will have to choose from may result in a lower percentage of folks of being finally offered a job or an argument could be made it will result in a higher number....one's point of view can lead to either conclusion. I have no way of knowing.

Your comments are as important for everyone to read & understand as mine are. I hope everyone goes into the process with their eyes wide open & aware of what they are about to experience.

One final caveat. SWA has hired folks, many in fact who weren't hired on the 1st, 2nd & even 3rd interview have been hired at SWA. This doesn't mean that we don't have folks who weren't hired after numerous attempts, yourself included, but each time is a clean slate in trying to get hired at SWA. While no one likes to be turned down by any potential employer the reality is that EVERYONE is not a good fit for SWA. For folks to realize that & go on with their lives & aviation career is not easy. Being turned down isn't a value statement about the individual just as being turned down by your high school heartthrob 3 times for a date makes one a loser, maybe it was best it didn't happen. I have come across folks I have known that have wanted to work at SWA but fortunately they didn't ask me to write a LOR for them. I have turned down some because I didn't believe they were a good fit, personality wise. Judgemental? Yes. Fair? Don't know but I was being true to myself. I'm no God's gift to aviation but in a previous life I had to make hard calls on who was fit for promotion & who wasn't...the call has to be made at some point, it isn't personal, it is simply a requirement when it comes to recommending fellow pilots, hiring pilots or in the case of SWA, putting them on the payroll.

Leroy,

To answer you question, I don't have the definitive answer. I understand the money issue. It is a decision that is even more difficult in these economic times. Being furloughed at least allows folks to possibly use WIA money but for those who are still employed the cost is significant. My only suggestion would be that the ONE thing you can do to improve your chances of getting called sooner is get a type, something you already know. At some point will SWA run out of folks with types? Probably so based upon interview requirements but that may not happen for several years...again only my opinion. I would ask the folks in the PD that question but I would think they may have no defnitive answer for it at this point. Until they get the new process in place & decide what criteria will be used, their matrix for who gets invited & when maybe unclear at this time. Of course they could say all of my ramblings are full of dribble too & they would be right!!!

There are over 2000+ apps without types that are currently at SWA. SWA had previously announced they would make the selection for inteviews based upon competitive scoring. Those with types are more competitive than those without. Again, just my opinion. I have no way of knowing for sure but I would expect quite a few of the folks who are in the same situation as you have gone out to get their types & I would expect them to get called based upon that fact. If I'm painting a bleak picture, remember, I'm not the artist that counts, it is SWA & how they plan on doing it. I'm only making an observation/comment/advise sharing or whatever you wish to call it. The decision is yours & yours alone. Good luck & God Bless.

 

[thebluto]

Category 1

Chase:

I thought Category 1 ended April 1, 2003. The November deadline was no more apps without type ratings, the April 1 deadline was no more apps at all. If you had an app with a type rating before April 1, doesn't that put you in the first category?

 

[chase]

thebluto

Oops, you're correct. Thanks for the correction, I'll go back & change my post to fix the error. again thanks for keeping me straight!!!

 

[thebluto]

No apoplogy needed

Chase:

No need to apologize, you just had me worried for a second. I had my app in Feb 2002, but had to pull it when I found out I couldn't get out of the Navy until Feb 2004.

SWA doesn't allow apps from military folks until they are 13 months out, and at the time of my original application, SWA was still interviewing.

I resubmitted in Dec 2003.

We all appreciate your posts. You seem to have the best info out there!

 

[AlbieF15]

If you willing to shell out $3,000, $5,000, or $10,000 bucks for a type rating to have a "chance" at SWA, may I humbly suggest you reach into the wallet for another $300-$500 and call Rob Beeks for an interview prep?

Feerless's cautions was well advised. I'm not saying Rob could have gotten him a job, but I think statistically guys who use him will do much better than guys who don't...

Rob works there, knows the gig, and has helped a lot of folks. Some people say its "mercenary" to teach and prep folks, but I think its just cheap insurance when the stakes are so high.

RWB doesn't even KNOW me, but he helped a buddy tremendously who was trying to join SWA. Fortunately, he was successful....but unfortunately my buddy took his AA class instead. Thank goodness for the ANG.

And no...I don't do SWA preps...because I don't have the insight into the "system" at SWA. Robs record, however, indicates he does.

Good luck...and thanks Chase as always for some great gouge.

 

[Pig]

What about this competitive interview screening? Anyone know how that will affact who gets called when? I assume typed people will still be the most preferred. But are all in the application pool still guaranteed an interview at some point.

Also, how many -200's is SWA planning on retiring in '04 and how many total are left. We've read some posts saying all -200's could be retired in '04 to ditch them before domestic RVSM kicks in.

 

[Bake]

From 2nd quarter report.

2003 - 12 more -700's Retire 4 -200's
2004 - 42 -700's Retire 17 -200's
2005 - 34 -700's Retire 5 - 200's (200's gone by mid 05)
2006 - 38 -700's


Net gain of 92 aircraft in 2004-2006

Bake

 

[Yahtzee]

Retirements in '04?

Chase & gang:

Thanks for all the info. Wow what a weekend:

- A rookie ranked 396th in the world wins the British Open.
- One of my best friends gets married to an incredible woman
- SWA accelerates orders to get net gain of 25 Aircraft in '04
- The Dawgs beat Florida in Jacksonville and win the SEC EAST...wait that was a nice dream...We're going to beat Florida the first weekend in Nov and hopefully beat Auburn again in the SEC Championship game!

Seriously, can one of you SWA pilots peer into your crystal ball and take a conservative wag at the retirements in 2004? (just assume medical and age 60 retirements and not all those folks calling in rich)

Net of 25*10 folks is 250 trainees + retirements...Is this an accurate assessment?

Congrats to all the poolies!

Yahtz

 

[Bake]

According to SWAPA website, approx 115 scheduled retirements in 04.

 

[HAZ-MAT]

Hey Yahtzee, hear that? chomp chomp chomp... mmmm... its an alligator chomping on some dawg meat

Congrats for you all on posting a record 49th consecutive quarter profit.

 

[Yahtzee]

Thanks for the numbers Bake!

 

[KingAirGuy]

Interview

I submitted my App 17 Nov 2001 (great time to be looking for an Aviation job wasn't it?) I met all requirements and have kept my paperwork current and give Lindsey a call every couple months to ask questions and let them know I am alive and still desire employment witht he company.

I have no hard facts, however here is my guesstimation. I would assume there are about 600-900 apps with types. At the peak of SWA's interviewing process they interviewed as many as 25 applicants a day. That equates to 2 months of interviewing to burn thru the Typed guys.

As to taking the 8K gambel. Fortunately, I am currently employed by a stable company in a flying position. As much as I would deeply love to call SWA my home, if its not in the cards then so be it. As Chase said, its a business descision by the company to either hire or not hire you, nothing personal.

Too all of you out there not flyinf for pay at the monment. There ARE corp jobs out there. You just have to find them. Good luck to all and I hope to see you in Dallas some day

feel the LUV