SWA Hiring...

[General Lee]

So the GL is basically saying a SWA FO making ....$140K+.... with lots of days off and really fun crews, are going to leave to work at places like DL, UA, AA where the pilot groups have been miserable and militant for years. FLy with 60 yr old grandmas' and go to the bottom of the seniority list to start at $40-50K and not see $140K for years... Doubtful.. Unlike the General, many people have families to feed and bills to pay, which SWA seems to provide for rather easily


There's more to life than destinations and type of a/c....

First of all, legacy pay rates are rising. Newhires in 2015 at DL will start at $71 per hour, and that is the last year of a 3 year contract that probably will go higher. When hiring becomes tighter due to fewer pilots out there, competition for qualified pilots will increase, and the legacies know that.

After 1st year pay is over and retirements continue, the upward movement might be CRAZY. Remember, the bigger the plane, the more it pays at a legacy. Going from 717 FO the first year to 767ER FO the next (it could happen when retiring 500 in one year), could mean a significant raise. Second year on the 717 in 2015 will make $96 an hour (up from $71), and if you go to the 767ER, you go to $110 (2nd year by 2015). Also, with all that training going on (500 top guys leave, means each guy leaving causes 9 or so guys to move up, so 500 leaving means TONS of training) there could be high line values, or a lot of greenslips to cover flying. That means cash money..... You can stay as a 717 FO and get senior and pick up greenslips, or you can move up and be a line holder on the 767 and fly to Rio.

So Bent Over, I think you can see where this is going. Even first year pay at $71 is better than all the other legacies, and it might be higher than yours (APC says your current pay is $57 a trip first year, I don't know what it will be in 2015, but $71 an hour aint bad....). Your pilots may be looking carefully at those numbers and the more important numbers---like 4,000 scheduled age 65 retirements betweeb 2020-2024, four of those years have over 800 leaving each year, in a row. That is amazing.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

General Lee is correct. The Legacy carriers are retiring large amounts of pilots in the next few years. SWA is not. What is wrong with them leaving SWA and going over there??? Nothing is my answer.


right up to the point that they furlough again. It will happen. We are in an "up " cycle where they are going to start hiring like gangbusters. fog a mirror and your in. Then economy ********************s and guess what, you're on the street. Much like the "peak oil" guys. They will be back.

Ummmm, you guys might be the ones strolling into BK, you never know. The legacies do have some debt to take care of, and as Red likes to point out, Pension obligations. But, the legacies also have tremendous revenue generating potential, espcially due to fees. Delta's goal was to bring the debt down to $10 billion by the end of this year, down from $18 billion 3 or 4 years ago. That is a great feet in itself. Well, DL just announced it was going for $7 billion instead as a goal, an additional $3 billion. That is called amazing. There is also a $1 billion stock buy back and a dividend that is a first in awhile (yes, you guys also give dividends). That is called a turn around. Yes, I think the pilot contract could have been a bit better in hindsight, but as we always say "we'll getum next time!" We still got a great raise for a 3 year contract. The pension obligations are expensive too, but like a mortgage payment, you just have to keep plugging away, and DL actually made a larger payment last quarter than was needed. They understand the obligation, and even getting the debt down to manageable levels, the interest payments per year drop $500 million, which can inturn help fund the pensions. Amazing.

Again, the difference these days is FEES. Back during the BKs of the last decade, FEES were not significant. Now, they are almost commonplace, even at your subsidiary Airtran, which SWA benefits.... That plus consolidation has really changed the game, making legacies stronger. Forward thinking, like buying a refinery, brings a twist that people are watching, with many analysts loving the idea of controlling your costs of your biggest expense (gas). Then there are "J.R. Ewing" wannabees like Red that think it was crazy. We'll see eventually, but at least management is making proactive stabs at their highest cost, and taking out the middleman.

So, don't think cycles will always come back the same way. A lot has changed in this up cycle (fees and consolidation), and it may soften the next down cycle for all of us. Even during this last recession over the last couple years, the Legacies have all made profits. That should say something right there. And, taking airlines to BK to extract costs and then expecting an Exit Bonus upon leaving BK just may not ever happen again. Look at Horton at AA, and how the BK judge and the DOJ have stated NO to the big bonus. All airline management teams have taken notice. Bonuses come from profit sharing, not BKs.



Bye Bye----General Lee

 

[scoreboardII]

GL, SWA bankruptcy? Just imagine for a second we are in the real world, stay with me here, do you really think SWA would continue into bankruptcy without hitting every revenue opportunity like charge for bags and such, or do you think they, as represented in your world, say "nope, not going to charge, we tried and failed, so off to bankruptcy" Really?

 

[SWA Bubba]

The hiring rumor came out of the GO with the intention of creating the illusion of growth to help grease the skids to get the contract done. As soon as the ink is dry they will announce that we need to "change course" and "aggressively optimize" and "right size the airline" in order to "remain competitive". Odds are much higher that we furlough than hire unless we buy another airline in which case they will hold off on the furloughs until after the government approves the next merger.

I was starting to wonder what was wrong with you, Ghetto-- you hadn't been yelling about our "impending furloughs" in a while. I thought you were sick or something. Thank God you're okay, and back to your usual droning, pessimistic stupidity.

You DO realize that nobody at Southwest, nobody on this stupid anonymous board, for that matter, believes that, right? Even General Lee can't bring himself to pretend he thinks that. Yet you persist, even after your "facts" have been disproven. You grasp at straws, ... anything, ... no matter how absurd, to try to substantiate your delusion. It's like you want it to be true for some reason.

You know, it used to alternatingly amuse and irk me, listening to your ridiculous rationalizations that you use to justify your idiotic doom and gloom rantings. After thinking about it for a while, though, now I just feel sorry for you. Your life must really suck, what, being you and all. You have to be one of the most miserable, pessimistic men on the planet.

Bubba

 

[General Lee]

GL, SWA bankruptcy? Just imagine for a second we are in the real world, stay with me here, do you really think SWA would continue into bankruptcy without hitting every revenue opportunity like charge for bags and such, or do you think they, as represented in your world, say "nope, not going to charge, we tried and failed, so off to bankruptcy" Really?

So, there is NO way your airline could ever go BK? Ever? Alright, I just want to make sure you believe that 100%, because the former Pan Am, Eastern, and TWA guys probably thought the same way back when. I thought the same in the late 90s, but was proven wrong. Just try not to get too cocky here. I know it's tough for some of you Corndogs, but things happen. Simmer down a bit.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I was starting to wonder what was wrong with you, Ghetto-- you hadn't been yelling about our "impending furloughs" in a while. I thought you were sick or something. Thank God you're okay, and back to your usual droning, pessimistic stupidity.

You DO realize that nobody at Southwest, nobody on this stupid anonymous board, for that matter, believes that, right? Even General Lee can't bring himself to pretend he thinks that. Yet you persist, even after your "facts" have been disproven. You grasp at straws, ... anything, ... no matter how absurd, to try to substantiate your delusion. It's like you want it to be true for some reason.

You know, it used to alternatingly amuse and irk me, listening to your ridiculous rationalizations that you use to justify your idiotic doom and gloom rantings. After thinking about it for a while, though, now I just feel sorry for you. Your life must really suck, what, being you and all. You have to be one of the most miserable, pessimistic men on the planet.

Bubba

Bubba,

Sounds like ghetto is actually worried about his job. Maybe he is junior and he might be one of those guys who considers moving over to one of the big three legacies some day? Easy on him, and I think he may be an original Corndog and not a FAT pilot. Think how many of them may be thinking the same? You just never know....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[ATRCA]

So the GL is basically saying a SWA FO making ....$140K+.... with lots of days off and really fun crews, are going to leave to work at places like DL, UA, AA where the pilot groups have been miserable and militant for years. FLy with 60 yr old grandmas' and go to the bottom of the seniority list to start at $40-50K and not see $140K for years... Doubtful.. Unlike the General, many people have families to feed and bills to pay, which SWA seems to provide for rather easily


There's more to life than destinations and type of a/c....

I'm a late 07 hire at UAL (b756). I'll make about 140k this year. I'll also get an extra 16% thrown in to my B-fund at no cost to me...your numbers are a bit off.

 

[General Lee]

I'm a late 07 hire at UAL (b756). I'll make about 140k this year. I'll also get an extra 16% thrown in to my B-fund at no cost to me...your numbers are a bit off.

That's true, I think DL's is now 14% (12% DC plus 2% match on 401K). You don't have to put a dime down and you will get 14%, whereas SWA pilots have to put down money or they don't get a match, right? That 14% will only increase in future contracts, and LCC FOs will be looking at that too.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Fliteidol]

A good pal of mine, 7 year SWA FO went to recurrent a while back and said another guy in class had already put his notice in and was off to DL. Its plausible that if you are young and junior at SWA you may consider starting again elsewhere. The demographics do tend towards a long career in the right seat for newbies which is still a great job but some will roll the dice again!

 

[anewunion]

So the GL is basically saying a SWA FO making ....$140K+.... with lots of days off and really fun crews, are going to leave to work at places like DL, UA, AA where the pilot groups have been miserable and militant for years. FLy with 60 yr old grandmas' and go to the bottom of the seniority list to start at $40-50K and not see $140K for years... Doubtful.. Unlike the General, many people have families to feed and bills to pay, which SWA seems to provide for rather easily


There's more to life than destinations and type of a/c....

No Grannies at SWA ? That's not what SWA Capt. told me.( over an open mic )

DAL just graduated 200 FA's ( Trust me, very Hot )

SWA has no military pilots ? ( Mil pilots are cool, they never went through all the BS )


Pay ? I have already made over 80K this year. ( 7 yr F/O )

On a side note- The biggest perk for me is the opportunity to fly different A/C throughout my career. I like some strange every seven yrs.

 

[Dash Power]

A good pal of mine, 7 year SWA FO went to recurrent a while back and said another guy in class had already put his notice in and was off to DL.

Off to an airline not hiring.

Who makes up this crap.....

More importantly, what morons buys into this crap......

 

[Dash Power]

I don't know, a lot?

Come on know it all, give us a number as what you know. 50%.....10%.....what?

 

[zippy32]

SWA will start charging some sort of bag fee when Amedeus comes online. The writing has been on the wall for months (no mention of bags flying free on any ad).

 

[PropPiedmont]

SWA will start charging some sort of bag fee when Amedeus comes online. The writing has been on the wall for months (no mention of bags flying free on any ad).

Except for the big ass "Free Bags Fly Here" sticker on the sides of some of our airplanes.

 

[fam62c]

I'm a late 07 hire at UAL (b756). I'll make about 140k this year. I'll also get an extra 16% thrown in to my B-fund at no cost to me...your numbers are a bit off.

Also, for pilots starting out now the upgrade is a factor as well. If the legacy upgrade is at 12 years and SW is at 20 the extra years in the left seat is worth a lot of money. SW pays FO's very well but the years of SW FO's making more than legacy CA's is quickly approaching it's end with this latest contract cycle. Legacy FO pay has also risen although SW is still better in most cases.

I don't think that many SW/AT FO's will choose to start over but there will be some younger ones who will do it. The big question a few years from now will be if the next generation of new, younger pilots will choose to go to (or stay at) SW if there is significant movement and hiring at the legacy carriers. The advantages that SW had for new-hires when the industry was in the toilet and they were the only game in town are not as pronounced now. The fact that career progression at SW today is very different from what it was back in the days of rapid growth will be a factor when new pilots are looking for career positions. How many years does a new pilot want to work weekends and holidays, be on reserve, be at the most junior base, wait for upgrade, etc? Junior pilots working at a company with slow movement do these things....even at SW.

One thing in favor of SW though as somebody else pointed out is that SW weathers downturns far better than most carriers. In this industry the one thing you can always bet on is that there will be another downturn.....there always is.

In any case, the fact the industry seems to be profitable and there is movement and hiring that seems to be accelerating is good for all of us. The last decade has been pretty rough for this industry.

 

[zippy32]

Except for the big ass "Free Bags Fly Here" sticker on the sides of some of our airplanes.

And those have been disappearing of late. Look at the ads in the jetways and any other print/tv ad. Not a single mention of bags flying free.

 

[madjack]

The pilot shortage, if it pans out, will help everybody at every airline! DL needs to get back out in front of the CBA pack...SWA has kept the mark and now that DL is profitable, they need to take over as industry leaders in compensation.

 

[redflyer65]

And those have been disappearing of late. Look at the ads in the jetways and any other print/tv ad. Not a single mention of bags flying free.

Zippy is right. I think the aircraft stickers are down to less than a handful out of around 500 aircraft.

The marketing campaign will focus on Customer Service instead of bag fees.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Bubba,

Sounds like ghetto is actually worried about his job. Maybe he is junior and he might be one of those guys who considers moving over to one of the big three legacies some day? Easy on him, and I think he may be an original Corndog and not a FAT pilot. Think how many of them may be thinking the same? You just never know....


Bye Bye---General Lee

I know he's an "original Corndog" junior FO, and not a FAT pilot. He's not talking about leaving for greener pastures; all he talks about is "impending Southwest furloughs," using nonsensical data that only he's smart enough to decipher. It's probably good for you that he's not over at Delta- he'd be the same depressed, gloomy Gus over there, talking about your "impending furloughs." Hell, your recent news about cutting back in Memphis, leaves of absence, etc. is so "dire," that it probably would have driven him over the edge.

Bubba

 

[redflyer65]

I know he's an "original Corndog" junior FO, and not a FAT pilot. He's not talking about leaving for greener pastures; all he talks about is "impending Southwest furloughs," using nonsensical data that only he's smart enough to decipher. It's probably good for you that he's not over at Delta- he'd be the same depressed, gloomy Gus over there, talking about your "impending furloughs." Hell, your recent news about cutting back in Memphis, leaves of absence, etc. is so "dire," that it probably would have driven him over the edge.

Bubba

He's the perfect guy to man the Furlough Hotline (or is it the Suicide Hotline), no matter where he works.