SWA contract amendable- no pay raise?

[Bobby Orr 4]

Pretty easy really. When you're passengers don't expect anything in the first place, what is there to complain about?

How many times have you been turned down by SWA?

 

[Benjamin Dover]

Hey hot head,

Why don't you read the entire thread before opening your dick-licker. I'm on your side, loser. Add another one of you guys who hopes we lose our pension. Glad to see your true colors. Again, except you and SWAFO, I wish your pilot group the best...and the legacy guys too.

Why do you even post here purple knob? Give you an extra boost before you flex in the mirror? You got yours - let it be. Just as I'm sure you FDX guys could care less about input from airline guys on your contract, SWA doesn't need your two cents. I hope they hold up the bar as well - although not to "put us out of our misery" as you suggest, but to help us in the future to maybe get back close to where I was pre-bk at some point before retirement.

As far as the pension, I don't hope for your loss, I would just suggest a serious look at getting some of the $Billions of profit in back to you in your name rather than banking on the pension being there forever. Defined benefit plans are a dinasour. Not than long ago I had the promise of 60% FAE to look forward to. Now, besides going from $156/hr to $89/hr 8 year F/O, I have squat for a pension.

I have many navy buds at FDX and the last thing I would do is wish your demise. My two cents is that at some point you guys may want to blend in some profit sharing with the pension plan. There's a lot to be said for retirement $ in your own name.

But, what do I know. Just a dumb-ass legacy guy here whose company also used to make a billion a year. Glad your profits are bullet proof.

Gotta go read "jumpseat 101" on another thread now to see how it's done.

Ben

 

[Purpled]

Having pissed off SWAFO and BD at the same time, I feel like a fukcing hero! Perhaps it's time to retire.

BTW, BD, looks like we might have negotiated in the direction that you suggested, glad you thought of it.

FO, I laughed reading about squeezing my purple thing...thanks for that.

 

[SWA/FO]

I'm not mad.

 

[flyhomefast]

Why do you even post here purple knob? Give you an extra boost before you flex in the mirror? You got yours - let it be. Just as I'm sure you FDX guys could care less about input from airline guys on your contract, SWA doesn't need your two cents. I hope they hold up the bar as well - although not to "put us out of our misery" as you suggest, but to help us in the future to maybe get back close to where I was pre-bk at some point before retirement.

As far as the pension, I don't hope for your loss, I would just suggest a serious look at getting some of the $Billions of profit in back to you in your name rather than banking on the pension being there forever. Defined benefit plans are a dinasour. Not than long ago I had the promise of 60% FAE to look forward to. Now, besides going from $156/hr to $89/hr 8 year F/O, I have squat for a pension.

I have many navy buds at FDX and the last thing I would do is wish your demise. My two cents is that at some point you guys may want to blend in some profit sharing with the pension plan. There's a lot to be said for retirement $ in your own name.

But, what do I know. Just a dumb-ass legacy guy here whose company also used to make a billion a year. Glad your profits are bullet proof.

Gotta go read "jumpseat 101" on another thread now to see how it's done.

Ben

BendOver,

Well, maybe you're just a dumb-ass legacy guy or just bitter. While I would agree that defined benefit contributions are somewhat of a thing of a past, its not the past. Many fortune 500 corporations are NOT disolving retirement programs. There has to be a reason for disolving these plans, the pax industry has been unstable at best since de regulation. There was never a secure feeling with those funds. NOW, fedex does have a b fund that is solid, a 401k with match that is solid, and a product that is solid. So assuming or wishing that ours would disolve as yours did is just imature. Would you suggest us give up our a fund completly for profit sharing while in 10 years maybe our profits would go done, then would you snub your nose at us. Should we give up our contract and accept SWA's and work our buts off for less money? How about the life expectance of those SWA guys who are stuck in a tube with long duty days exposing themselves to the cancer elements (pre-empted the night flying issue). Or do we give up our a fund for a monster 401k when the goverment is glancing at that money and trying to figure a way to get a piece of that (taxes, elemintion of other benefits if you have a certain amount in your 401k). WOW all this, it looks like fedex is a well diversified investments (A,B, and 401k)!!!!! Oops, I almost forgot to mention that cargo is a little more secure than pax.

Fire away and I'll hit the deck.

 

[Benjamin Dover]

BendOver,

Well, maybe you're just a dumb-ass legacy guy or just bitter. While I would agree that defined benefit contributions are somewhat of a thing of a past, its not the past. Many fortune 500 corporations are NOT disolving retirement programs. There has to be a reason for disolving these plans, the pax industry has been unstable at best since de regulation. There was never a secure feeling with those funds. NOW, fedex does have a b fund that is solid, a 401k with match that is solid, and a product that is solid. So assuming or wishing that ours would disolve as yours did is just imature. Would you suggest us give up our a fund completly for profit sharing while in 10 years maybe our profits would go done, then would you snub your nose at us. Should we give up our contract and accept SWA's and work our buts off for less money? How about the life expectance of those SWA guys who are stuck in a tube with long duty days exposing themselves to the cancer elements (pre-empted the night flying issue). Or do we give up our a fund for a monster 401k when the goverment is glancing at that money and trying to figure a way to get a piece of that (taxes, elemintion of other benefits if you have a certain amount in your 401k). WOW all this, it looks like fedex is a well diversified investments (A,B, and 401k)!!!!! Oops, I almost forgot to mention that cargo is a little more secure than pax.

Fire away and I'll hit the deck.

Hope you're right.

Out,

Ben

 

[Purpled]

I'm not mad.

Yes you are, like a hatter! Enjoy!

 

[Bobby Orr 4]

. You're W2's may look good but let's face it, you fly regional type schedules........some QOL. I'll put our scheduling and hours of service sections up against yours anyday.

Yes, W2s look good.
Didn't know regional pilots had 18-19 days off per month making $17000/mnth
15 or 16 days off per month on reserve on our side. How about yours?

 

[Bobby Orr 4]

Sorry, but when a company makes you pay to park where you work, that's just plain a$$ cheap no matter how you slice it. And even McDonalds provides a uniform for their employees at no cost......

Show me a Micky Dees front line worker that makes 6 figures.
Cheap??? How much does your top guys make?
I'll pay my $20 per month parking and keep my W2 where it is and good luck on the next DB.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

It seems that everyones bubble will burst at sometime.
Is it time for Southwests ride to come to a slowing halt?

Geez...can't you come up with anything more original? This question has only been asked a bazillion times since the initial stock offering 30+ years ago...

I look at it this way....at my old "legacy" carrier, management made promises...and lied and continued to lie.....SWA paid me my profit sharing on September 14, 2001 just as they had promised earlier that year...How did your company handle the days just after September 11, 2001? Did they keep all their promises or honor their labor agreements?

Tejas

 

[Frank Lorenzo]

SWA guys, I just wanted to drop you a note to tell you how proud and encouraged I am by reading a lot of your posts. When I see you saying things like "we need to look out for the company" or "we don't need a pay raise", it brings tears of joy to my eyes.

Finally, a group of pilots that realizes where the profits should go. The executive suite and the shareholders.

SWA pilots were ostracized a decade ago for being the minimum wage whores of the industry. I can't tell you how upset I was at this. Through no fault of your own, you became the industry's highest paid pilots. I am so proud of you guys for realizing what a dangerous place this puts you and your corporation in. As long as you stay the course towards a pay freeze, or better yet CONCESSIONS, you will always come out on top in my book.

Hope to see you back on the bottom soon!

Good luck!

 

[Purpled]

Grenade!!!

 

[mdf]

That was actually kind of funny.

 

[Bake]

Funny, Yes it was. However, I have the money to buy his "faithful" wife as set of edible panties. Strawberry Cream to be exact. Thanks Frank, your wife tastes good. U can have her back when I'm done.

 

[Benhuntn]

QOL is an important issue. I agree we should kill PBS right out of the shute. I here a lot of talk about pay and time off. I have a limited ability to compare. In my last job I worked 7 days straight 3 off for 15 yrs. Followed that with a 7 day a week stint that lasted just under 8 months. I averaged 110 hrs per month. Now I can hold weekdays and 17 days off a month but I choose to work weekends and 18 days off. I think life is much better now than when I worked for Uncle Sugar. In my second yr here I make more than I did after 28 yrs of service. I love LUV. Koolaid drinker? I don't think so just a guy that was lucky to get hired by an airline with a great bunch of pilots and I include SWA/FO in that too. Maybe when he is a capt. I can fly wtih him and show him MIL. guys aren't afraid of wx.

 

[SWA/FO]

Maybe when he is a capt. I can fly wtih him and show him MIL. guys aren't afraid of wx.

Hey, I was quoted out of context...just like our union guys.

imp:

 

[Tejas-Jet]

You SWA koolaid kooks can't see the forest through the trees. "Yeah we have to pay for parking and uniforms, etc. but look at our hourly rates!" Forget the fact that the company works you like borrowed mules to gain the productivity needed to afford those rates. You're W2's may look good but let's face it, you fly regional type schedules........some QOL. I'll put our scheduling and hours of service sections up against yours anyday.

For the record....I left my old "legacy" carrier to come to SWA more than 10 years ago...I continue to be extremely happy with the choice I made.

Tejas

 

[ivauir]

Yawn...
saaaaaaaaabsline low iqer and good ole frank ...
... that's it? Those are your best shots?

At least Frank was kind'o funny. The rest of you morons should be banned for wasting bandwidth and O2.

 

[SWA/FO]

Before 9/11, SWA was considered "a stepping stone". It was that much closer to DAL, UAL, AA. I am sure that before 9/11, there were more SWA pilots going to the "majors" than the other way around. Now in a post 9/11 world, it is a "I told you so mentaltiy".

Everybody seems to forget that the old payrates were tied into promised (and delivered) rapid growth. Also some real good stock options were given with those payrates to bring them upto the "legacy" guys at the time. You guys have to find your brain, airlinepilotpay.com or FAPA is not always right...maybe close at best.

So, I don't see many attacks towards CAL thesedays, they are doing something similar. They changed their pay and promised growth. Anybody consider them a "stepping stone?". CAL might just be the smartest legacy out there..... (that last part was for Anne.)

I'll go on the record: anybody that left SWA for a legacy in 1999/2000 & early 2001 made the wrong choice, chose poorly, f-ed up.... peer pressure can be tough sometimes.

the SWA/FO imp:

 

[YourPilotFriend]

If SWA keeps the status-quo and the fuel hedges run out, their cost of operation will be almost exactly what the average legacy carrier is at give or take +- 0.5 cents per mile. Basically this is the most ideal condition and should restore stability to the industry. This is how it was in regulation before the LCC's. Now if someone can go lower, all pilots including SWA with all legacy and LCC pilots will begin the leveling out process again. Since SWA has a lower operational cost structure, it can afford to pay its pilots more, and that's just the way it is.

 

[ivauir]

If SWA keeps the status-quo and the fuel hedges run out, their cost of operation will be almost exactly what the average legacy carrier is at give or take +- 0.5 cents per mile. .

False

 

[Dangerkitty]

If SWA keeps the status-quo and the fuel hedges run out, their cost of operation will be almost exactly what the average legacy carrier is at give or take +- 0.5 cents per mile.

Do some better research dude. You couldn't be anymore wrong.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Do some better research dude. You couldn't be anymore wrong.

Show me the mathematical data that supports your claim. It's wrong because you're not factoring in retirements, buy-outs, and possible mergers. SWA has about a 2.50 cents per mile advantage over the other airlines. That number will be squeezed to 0.70 cents after fuel hedges run out. The additional savings on what I have stated above will reduce that number to possibly even lower than the operational costs of SWA. But by all means though, show me where I'm adding these numbers wrong.

 

[satpak77]

I will add that while SWA's costs may not "be the same as a legacies" while the fuel hedges run out, their costs WILL go up.

The legacies have a HUGE number of people retired, with associated medical benefits, pension issues, etc. SWA does not.

However, we know SWA started in 1971 but really didn't expand until approx 1978ish. It had another expansion year in 1985ish. (Then of course things really went well for SWA to include all the way until now - CONGRATS guys).

Using Kit Darbys official airline pilot hire age of 28, that means the guys hired in 1978 are now 56, and the guys hired in the mid 80s are now 49.

So, in the next 10 year period or so, SWA will see quite a few retirements and associated costs with that. But they do not have the "problem" of DAL, UAL, AA, etc, with thousands and thousands of retired pilots, gate agents, accountants, etc etc. Note that JetBlue does not have this problem either.

Obviously SWA's management is aware of this, and will run the company accordingly.

To say their cost structure will be the "same as" the legacies when the hedges run out, is incorrect. Also incorrect is to say that Southwest's expenses will never increase. They will.

 

[Dangerkitty]

Show me the mathematical data that supports your claim. It's wrong because you're not factoring in retirements, buy-outs, and possible mergers. SWA has about a 2.50 cents per mile advantage over the other airlines. That number will be squeezed to 0.70 cents after fuel hedges run out. The additional savings on what I have stated above will reduce that number to possibly even lower than the operational costs of SWA. But by all means though, show me where I'm adding these numbers wrong.

Show me the mathematical data that supports your claims. You are the one making the assertations. Not me.

However, what you fail to point out is that the legacies in bankrupty (and the ones that just exited) do not factor in their debt payments when it comes to the cost of their operation. Their cost per seat mile maybe have become lower but when you factor in the cost of going into bankruptcy not factored into your cost per seat mile you are really not getting an accurate picture.

And even though AA has not gone into bankruptcy they are still $20 billion in the hole. From here on out they will have to produce a $1 Billion dollar operating profit per year just to pay off their debt. Something they have only been able to do on a handful of occasions. That is also not shown in their cost per seat mile.

Add to that that these legacies virtually own nothing and are mortgaged to the hilt and you see that the picture is not to rosy at any of them. Lowered costs or not.

On the flip side SWA owns virtually all its aircraft and is paying for new ones IN CASH. When their profit shrinks the profit sharing shrinks as well which actually lowers their costs. They just reported their best quarter on record and still would have made a bundle in cash even without the fuel hedges

The only carrier that can get close to SWA in terms of operating costs is Airtran. Anyway you look at it the others carriers are still having a tough time slashing costs to compete with SWA.

 

[SWA/FO]

75 employees per airplane! Lean and mean, baby!!!

 

[Flycatcher99]

So, in the next 10 year period or so, SWA will see quite a few retirements and associated costs with that. But they do not have the "problem" of DAL, UAL, AA, etc, with thousands and thousands of retired pilots, gate agents, accountants, etc etc. Note that JetBlue does not have this problem either.

Obviously SWA's management is aware of this, and will run the company accordingly.

SWA doesn't have pensions. 401k, profit sharing accounts, and stock options. Thus, SWA will not have the financial liabilities carried by the "legacy carriers" for their retired pilots, et al.

Seems mgmt already was aware, and has already run the company accordingly. Hmph. How about that.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

75 employees per airplane! Lean and mean, baby!!!

Your CASM is the lowest of the industry in the US at 8.05 cents, but lean and mean is ryanair at 4.8 cents per mile.

 

[satpak77]

SWA doesn't have pensions. 401k, profit sharing accounts, and stock options. Thus, SWA will not have the financial liabilities carried by the "legacy carriers" for their retired pilots, et al.

Seems mgmt already was aware, and has already run the company accordingly. Hmph. How about that.

Correct, I am aware of that. However I think retiree medical costs would come into play at some point.

 

[Dangerkitty]

Your CASM is the lowest of the industry in the US at 8.05 cents, but lean and mean is ryanair at 4.8 cents per mile.

I dont know where you get your information, but you are totally and completely wrong once again.

Ryainair's CASM's are no where near 4.8 cents. Last I saw they were .057 Euro's which equates to 7.3 Cents per mile. Either you are a flat out liar or you can't seem to grasp the concept of simple research.

It aint that tough getting this information.