swa buying f9

[pilot05]

what is up?

 

[dougdrvr]

what is up?

The thick plotens
............................

 

[Tug Driver]

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/southwest-submits-proposal-to-buy-frontier-air-2009-07-30

 

[SennaP1]

Please, Please, Please.

 

[RobCat]

good luck

 

[Cheeta]

Please, Please, Please.

Careful what you "beg" for.....you might just get it.

ATA, Morris Air.........

Only a small % moves on to SWA list.

 

[StaySeated]

For the record, Morris air was acquired and their entire seniority list was stapled to the SWA list.

ATA ceased operation. After they closed their doors, SWA purchased some of their assets and gave their pilots a form of "preferential" interview. We all know how that worked out.

Neither of these cases are similar to F9.

 

[FO 4 Life]

You don't think F9 being bankrupt is similar to the ATA deaL? Wishful thinking I'm afraid.

 

[StaySeated]

It is very different.

ATA = didn't have capital to even enter Ch. 11 reorganziation. They filed Ch. 7 and ceased operations.

F9= obtained initial DIP and at least two exit financing proposals. Currently operating, with 8 months of profitable operations in a row. If neither exit financing proposals come to fruition, we will shut down.

Until then, the two situations are completely different. They both suck, but they are completely different.

 

[sshrae]

You don't think F9 being bankrupt is similar to the ATA deaL? Wishful thinking I'm afraid.

Southwest never made a bid to buy ATA, they just purchased some gates and started a code share to HI and maybe a few other places. I think they are very different. Not saying this is all good and no worries for f9, I am wondering if swa's motivation is just the gates in DEN, but a different deal altogether than the ATA agreement.

 

[FO 4 Life]

First, ATA didn't cease operations until 3+ years after SWA propped them up. For Frontier guys/gals I hope it will be different but I think SWA just wants the gates and some routes. They could just buy assets out of the bankruptcy.

Or, give money for Frontier to continue operations on city pairs not flown by SWA. As SWA expands, F9 routes decrease. ATA code shared to Hawaii, LGA and a few other places that SWA did not operate. Today, SWA operates to most of the cities ATA did (LGA, SFO, etc) except Hawaii.

 

[sshrae]

First, ATA didn't cease operations until 3+ years after SWA propped them up. For Frontier guys/gals I hope it will be different but I think SWA just wants the gates and some routes. They could just buy assets out of the bankruptcy.

I agree, the assets alone would yield more than they are offering to buy them for. 118 million is pretty cheap in my opinion. Those gates in DEN are not cheap.

 

[Minimaniac]

I am surprised that SWA offered just 5 million more. I would have imagined the offer would have been sweetened to level that RAH could not counter offer. But, I guess this is just an auction, and 5 million seems to be the incremental bid increase. Look for 118 from RAH shortly, followed by 123 from SWA, etc.

I don't know how much actual interest SWA has in F9, but it certainly benefits SWA to drain the resources of RAH, and raising the cost of F9 through auction is an easy way to do it.

 

[Indy319FA]

Funning thing is, if SWA is successful they have to cut Bedford a check for the financing Republic provided Frontier.

Typical Bedford. If he wins, he wins. If he loses, he still wins.

 

[sshrae]

Funning thing is, if SWA is successful they have to cut Bedford a check for the financing Republic provided Frontier.

Typical Bedford. If he wins, he wins. If he loses, he still wins.

He is going to need the money to stay afloat after his plan falls apart. That money is not going to last too long.

 

[Indy319FA]

He is going to need the money to stay afloat after his plan falls apart. That money is not going to last too long

Never said it was going to work. The jury is still out on that. As it stands he has bought a brand known for outstanding customer service (Midwest) and is trying to buy another (Frontier). Whether it continues its reputation for service with all flights operated by Republic is an open question.

It will be interesting to see what the company does. I'm hoping you will see some of the Midwest middle management, inflight training, and flight training departments taking over at Republic. This is the only chance for this to work, IMO. Republic has a management group that is good at running a fee for departure operation designed to operate as cheaply as possible to underbid other regional airlines. That is a far cry from running a company designed to recruit and retain customers necessary to build a brand. It is particularly critical for the inflight department, as Midwest's service reputation was largely built on the success of their inflight product. This will also require investments in training and people that Republic has not made so far because of their emphasis on getting everything as cheaply as possible.

The next year will be interesting to see how this all shakes out. I will say that if major changes in Republic Management and operations are not made, it is unlikely this venture will be successful in the long term.

 

[BUDDHA145]

He is going to need the money to stay afloat after his plan falls apart. That money is not going to last too long.

If it doent happend, he will have plenty of it!!! thats what Indy319FA was traying to explain!! any way good luck to all involved if it is SW+F9 or RAH+F9, lets hope it doesnt go USAirways stile or a wipsaw!!!

ill be in the regionals like...let see....ah for ever!!!!

 

[sshrae]

If it doent happend, he will have plenty of it!!! thats what Indy319FA was traying to explain!! any way good luck to all involved if it is SW+F9 or RAH+F9, lets hope it doesnt go USAirways stile or a wipsaw!!!

ill be in the regionals like...let see....ah for ever!!!!

I got the point!!!!! What I'm am trying to explain is that money might seem like a lot right now but in reality it aint sh!t. If this falls through the midwest thing is a bust as well, he needed both of these carriers to carry out his mega plan, that will be caput. That is all I am saying. How long do you think that money will last? My guess is not long.

 

[starchkr]

I am surprised that SWA offered just 5 million more. I would have imagined the offer would have been sweetened to level that RAH could not counter offer. But, I guess this is just an auction, and 5 million seems to be the incremental bid increase. Look for 118 from RAH shortly, followed by 123 from SWA, etc.

I don't know how much actual interest SWA has in F9, but it certainly benefits SWA to drain the resources of RAH, and raising the cost of F9 through auction is an easy way to do it.

Right now everyone who enters the "auction" only has to bid the same amount SWA did. That amount is the dollar amount RAH offered plus a "payoff" to RAH should the other carrier win. All the payoff fees owed to RAH total right at about that 5 million difference...it's a benefit they have as being the first to come forward with a reorganization plan. The actual auction phase will not happen until August 11th at which time the bids will then go up typical live auction style...which can go up by as little at a time as the bidders wish.

Plus, any carrier that purchases us besides RAH will incur that $40 million payoff as well. So if anyone but RAH wins they owe RAH ~$45 million. Nice payoff to Bedford if he was to lose.

As far as SWA having interest in us. The Dallas Morning News states SWA as saying they are "in this to win it." Now they could be bluffing of course, but i would bet they will probably take the high bid in the auction since they have the most cash to spend to eliminate a fierce competitor in DEN.

 

[texman]

Right now everyone who enters the "auction" only has to bid the same amount SWA did. That amount is the dollar amount RAH offered plus a "payoff" to RAH should the other carrier win. All the payoff fees owed to RAH total right at about that 5 million difference...it's a benefit they have as being the first to come forward with a reorganization plan. The actual auction phase will not happen until August 11th at which time the bids will then go up typical live auction style...which can go up by as little at a time as the bidders wish.

Plus, any carrier that purchases us besides RAH will incur that $40 million payoff as well. So if anyone but RAH wins they owe RAH ~$45 million. Nice payoff to Bedford if he was to lose.

As far as SWA having interest in us. The Dallas Morning News states SWA as saying they are "in this to win it." Now they could be bluffing of course, but i would bet they will probably take the high bid in the auction since they have the most cash to spend to eliminate a fierce competitor in DEN.

Hey starchkr what do all the F9 guys and girls think about a staple with pay protection? Would that be fair or a straight DOH seniority? Because If it was DOH then you guy's would jump at least 2500 overall numbers I think. Just trying to get a vibe.

 

[starchkr]

Hey starchkr what do all the F9 guys and girls think about a staple with pay protection? Would that be fair or a straight DOH seniority? Because If it was DOH then you guy's would jump at least 2500 overall numbers I think. Just trying to get a vibe.

Not too sure yet. I think both options suck, for someone at least, but i would bet that a job is better than the welfare line. I would love DOH, and i wouldn't jump too many people due to my limited length of employment here...but i am pretty sure that will not happen. A straight staple wouldn't be the best scenario for me, but they(SWA) would love it. Maybe something like a 4 to 1 from DOH with pay protection, would work, i don't know. That would keep more of the SWA guys/gals up the list than a straight DOH and would move some of us up "closer" to DOH. In all actuality, i don't know, like i said before, a job would be nice. Could/should i ask for much more right now with the situation F9 is in?

 

[Cometman]

Not too sure yet. I think both options suck, for someone at least, but i would bet that a job is better than the welfare line. I would love DOH, and i wouldn't jump too many people due to my limited length of employment here...but i am pretty sure that will not happen. A straight staple wouldn't be the best scenario for me, but they(SWA) would love it. Maybe something like a 4 to 1 from DOH with pay protection, would work, i don't know. That would keep more of the SWA guys/gals up the list than a straight DOH and would move some of us up "closer" to DOH. In all actuality, i don't know, like i said before, a job would be nice. Could/should i ask for much more right now with the situation F9 is in?

Since this is much more than ATA I think they will offer a staple and to encourage the F9 pilots to agree they will throw in the pay freeze. Since it will take time for SWA to get rid of the AB and replace them with the 737 it only makes sense to keep them on. As long as they have their SWA number they can come over as each AB leaves and replaced with a 737. The Denver Base lock will help them in the transition. It will not hurt SWA since they cannot fly the AB. That will be more than any F9 would expect. Remember, they are being auctioned off. They could be out on the street.

 

[texman]

Not too sure yet. I think both options suck, for someone at least, but i would bet that a job is better than the welfare line. I would love DOH, and i wouldn't jump too many people due to my limited length of employment here...but i am pretty sure that will not happen. A straight staple wouldn't be the best scenario for me, but they(SWA) would love it. Maybe something like a 4 to 1 from DOH with pay protection, would work, i don't know. That would keep more of the SWA guys/gals up the list than a straight DOH and would move some of us up "closer" to DOH. In all actuality, i don't know, like i said before, a job would be nice. Could/should i ask for much more right now with the situation F9 is in?

I am in the same boat at SWA. Alot of guys and girls are saying staple. I will say from a cost piont of view, Swa is all about money. I think they would hire local DEN F9 people to keep moving cost down, DOH would kill the senortiy of about 2000 + pilots at SWA. Brother it took me 10 years to get here. Just like it was for you mabey. Will all due respect looking at your pic boy do I know how that life style was, so I know where you are coming from (a brother just wants a break). So let's say we figure out some fair intergration of a staple to the bottom with pay, vaction based on years of svervice and Base lock, or some sort of ratio in favor of SWA. We would both win. We would grow Denver, grow domesticaly and internationly. I know upgrade for me and you would be 15 years but we will see. What I do know and I don't speak for all, is we would not want to see any F9 families on the street. Like I have posted before F9 people are a well known commodity, which would be a valuable asset to our culture and customers. Every person I know at SWA has either been on the streets before, any where from other airlines going under or mabey just got out of the Military got on with UA then furloghed after 911. So senority is such a touchy subject. Hey just think you will get free beer for a year. Oh yea 123 baby. I wish all of us luck.

 

[starchkr]

I am in the same boat at SWA. Alot of guys and girls are saying staple. I will say from a cost piont of view, Swa is all about money. I think they would hire local DEN F9 people to keep moving cost down, DOH would kill the senortiy of about 2000 + pilots at SWA. Brother it took me 10 years to get here. Just like it was for you mabey. Will all due respect looking at your pic boy do I know how that life style was, so I know where you are coming from (a brother just wants a break). So let's say we figure out some fair intergration of a staple to the bottom with pay, vaction based on years of svervice and Base lock, or some sort of ratio in favor of SWA. We would both win. We would grow Denver, grow domesticaly and internationly. I know upgrade for me and you would be 15 years but we will see. What I do know and I don't speak for all, is we would not want to see any F9 families on the street. Like I have posted before F9 people are a well known commodity, which would be a valuable asset to our culture and customers. Every person I know at SWA has either been on the streets before, any where from other airlines going under or mabey just got out of the Military got on with UA then furloghed after 911. So senority is such a touchy subject. Hey just think you will get free beer for a year. Oh yea 123 baby. I wish all of us luck.

I realize that not everyone will be happy, whether that is some SWA or all of the F9 guys/gals, that is just the process and its ups and downs. Personally, i think it will be to the advantage of the SWA pilots no matter how it comes about, and i support that since they are the ones buying us out of BK. One of those things i just have to accept and move forward with. Like i said, i would LOVE to have DOH, but i truly doubt with everything i have that that will even be close to what comes about should SWA win the auction. Staple with pay protection and everything you mention is probably what we will end up with or a variation of it somehow, and again i will accept it...doesn't mean i have to like it, but i will accept it. One thing i would love to keep is our scheduling as well, so much easier for us commuters to use than what "i have been told" you SWA guys/gals have. Can't beat being able to make EVERY trip commutable on both the front end and the back so i don't need a crash pad or to stay in a hotel the night before or after. Yes, the road to fruition came at a price with my last job. It was a blast, but the QOL sucked, but i sucked it up so that i could move on to F9.

One thing i want to know about though, is this "free beer for a year" though. I knew about the 123, but "free" sounds even better.

 

[ABC123]

WN is only buying F9 for the gates and other assets. WN business plan a 1 type aircraft fleet.

I smell another AA/TWA deal......where the F9 staff gets screwed

 

[Megalops]

GOD would ya quit with that crap...geeesh

 

[texman]

I realize that not everyone will be happy, whether that is some SWA or all of the F9 guys/gals, that is just the process and its ups and downs. Personally, i think it will be to the advantage of the SWA pilots no matter how it comes about, and i support that since they are the ones buying us out of BK. One of those things i just have to accept and move forward with. Like i said, i would LOVE to have DOH, but i truly doubt with everything i have that that will even be close to what comes about should SWA win the auction. Staple with pay protection and everything you mention is probably what we will end up with or a variation of it somehow, and again i will accept it...doesn't mean i have to like it, but i will accept it. One thing i would love to keep is our scheduling as well, so much easier for us commuters to use than what "i have been told" you SWA guys/gals have. Can't beat being able to make EVERY trip commutable on both the front end and the back so i don't need a crash pad or to stay in a hotel the night before or after. Yes, the road to fruition came at a price with my last job. It was a blast, but the QOL sucked, but i sucked it up so that i could move on to F9.

One thing i want to know about though, is this "free beer for a year" though. I knew about the 123, but "free" sounds even better.

Yes first year probation peeps get all thier drinks bought buy the captian, even some of the FO's and the FA's bought me drinks. So what ever the outcome may be DOH, ratio, or staple, I'll even buy the beer to keep the culture going.

 

[CitationUltra]

Funning thing is, if SWA is successful they have to cut Bedford a check for the financing Republic provided Frontier.

Typical Bedford. If he wins, he wins. If he loses, he still wins.

Well put. You gotta hand it to the guy...

The auction ploy where SW was almost certain to enter the auction, may have been calculated as the best, if not the only way, for BB to get his money back.

 

[CitationUltra]

Hey starchkr what do all the F9 guys and girls think about a staple with pay protection? Would that be fair or a straight DOH seniority? Because If it was DOH then you guy's would jump at least 2500 overall numbers I think. Just trying to get a vibe.

Which is why they would never get it.

 

[CitationUltra]

WN is only buying F9 for the gates and other assets. WN business plan a 1 type aircraft fleet.

I smell another AA/TWA deal......where the F9 staff gets screwed

You think?