SWA/AT future at Risk

[General Lee]

General,

Having read your blather for awhile, I find it hard to believe you really work in this industry.
Let arbitrators figure out the SLI. Really? YGBSM. How about the two groups work together, and as a LAST resort turn it over to an arbitrator. And if you think aribitrators have any common sense, look at the recent decision reference Eagle and the TWA folks. Unbelievable.

Look how you guys treated the F9 guys. Yeah, work it out TOGETHER......riiiiiiiiiiight. Why not have someone nuetral look at the facts and decide what is actually fair, not just fair in your mind. And, HELLO? Each recent merger had arbitration, primarily because each group has it's own idea of what is fair. An arbitrator will cut right through that. Look at USAir, Delta, RAH, and soon to be United. Welcome to reality, and welcome to El Paso, again.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[swa737-700]

Look how you guys treated the F9 guys. Yeah, work it out TOGETHER......riiiiiiiiiiight. Why not have someone nuetral look at the facts and decide what is actually fair, not just fair in your mind. And, HELLO? Each recent merger had arbitration, primarily because each group has it's own idea of what is fair. An arbitrator will cut right through that. Look at USAir, Delta, RAH, and soon to be United. Welcome to reality, and welcome to El Paso, again.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I realize you don't like facts getting in the way of your rhetoric but... Get the facts about SWA/F9 and see if you stand by your position...but don't discuss with me cause I am done with your BS.

 

[General Lee]

I realize you don't like facts getting in the way of your rhetoric but... Get the facts about SWA/F9 and see if you stand by your position...but don't discuss with me cause I am done with your BS.

Good, because reading your PURE BS is driving me NUTS (thanks Herb). Hello McFly? Welcome to arbitration. Your group has been hostile towards the Airtran group from the beginning, saying they would be a seperate carrier, etc. That is NO WAY to form a brotherhood that will lead to sustained profitability. SWAPA is NOT leading this merger, Wall ST is. Hedge fund people are whispering into GK's ears, not SWAPA. Wake up and realize that YOU ARE NOT LOSING ANYTHING in this merger. You aren't giving up pay, they will be gaining it from your management, not you. Airtran will bring planes to the table, and the only really old planes in your combined group are YOURS, the tuna can 737-300s. Get off your high horse and realize that you aren't flying Space Shuttles like you think you are, you are flying old 737-300s to Reno. And, I think it is great you are done discussing this. You haven't been good at it so far anyway. A true waste of my time.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Full of LUV]

General,

Having read your blather for awhile, I find it hard to believe you really work in this industry.
Let arbitrators figure out the SLI. Really? YGBSM. How about the two groups work together, and as a LAST resort turn it over to an arbitrator. And if you think aribitrators have any common sense, look at the recent decision reference Eagle and the TWA folks. Unbelievable.

I'm not an affected party, but I believe that arbitration has nothing to do with "fairness" and more to do with interpreting multiple side letters, and contracts both current and past and applying them to the current situation.
Arbitrators were not deciding whether it was "fair" for a furloughed TWA pilot to wait for an Eagle flow through, just who contractually had the right to that position.
So your argument doesn't really apply to a case where its a merger as only law and precedent apply in these situations. Well actually the majority can probably do whatever they want in the end but the more "unfair" it is will bring the flood of lawsuits to have the courts decide it, and that gets real expensive.

 

[General Lee]

I'm not an affected party, but I believe that arbitration has nothing to do with "fairness" and more to do with interpreting multiple side letters, and contracts both current and past and applying them to the current situation.
Arbitrators were not deciding whether it was "fair" for a furloughed TWA pilot to wait for an Eagle flow through, just who contractually had the right to that position.
So your argument doesn't really apply to a case where its a merger as only law and precedent apply in these situations. Well actually the majority can probably do whatever they want in the end but the more "unfair" it is will bring the flood of lawsuits to have the courts decide it, and that gets real expensive.

Sorry, but arbitration is about as fair as you can get. We had 3 arbitrators look at the lists at Delta and NW, look at the airlines themselves, the planes, and they decided what was fair for the SLI. You can't have people involved that are emotionally tied to an outcome. A NEUTRAL is just that, someone who has no ties and can objectively look at the parties and sort through the mess. And, if you want, you can have multiple arbitrators and not just one, like RAH and USAir did. It's up to the parties involved.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[SWA/CA]

precedent apply in these situations

I don't think "precedent" plays a role. I think every SLI is different. General Lee only has a hard on becuse Delta won... their SLI.

 

[On Your Six]

I don't think "precedent" plays a role. I think every SLI is different. General Lee only has a hard on becuse Delta won... their SLI.

No, Delta the airline won because both groups got together and were civil and abided by binding arbitration. After initial normal hard feelings subsided, things got back to normal and the guys I fly with (mostly ex-NWA) don't seem too upset at all. When it's all over with, we hopefully all will win because we can get a better contract and at the same time aren't in the same position as USAir is in, or possibly how you will end up if you guys don't clean up your act with Airtran.


OYS

 

[texman]

Gen, you have no fight. Your post are one of frustration and self pain felt by your arbitration award. Please stop the self BS. I have realized all you do is spark the fire. Stay out of it. YOU have no control! I would worry about your own peeps. What will you do when the AT side gets the injection it needs to put a stop to your little ATL home front. Get a grip this is FI.

 

[texman]

You delta foucks have retirements. That's why you are screaming arbitration for us. You just want us and AT to fail. Sorry! I don't think this deal is any thing like yours. You guys are just scared. Its ok. I hope the AT guys get what they feel is fair. When it is all over, they will have the tools to kick the crap out of delta. Good luck in Atlanta.

 

[General Lee]

Gen, you have no fight. Your post are one of frustration and self pain felt by your arbitration award. Please stop the self BS. I have realized all you do is spark the fire. Stay out of it. YOU have no control! I would worry about your own peeps. What will you do when the AT side gets the injection it needs to put a stop to your little ATL home front. Get a grip this is FI.

So, I can't have an opinion on this matter? You think I can't. This is FI, we ALL can have an opinion. I have been through this, so I do know something about it. All I keep saying is make sure you treat each other nicely, since you will be in the same cockpits someday. (Ty and Kharma may be the best Captains you will ever fly with) And, arbitration is mostly going to happen because both sides will not give in to each other's demands. It will happen, so get used to it. Also, I really don't think we are that worried about SWA coming to ATL, since you already compete with us in SLC and that hasn't been a real factor, and you are limited on gates in ATL. Also, you are limited by ATL itself, and if you don't pay the Airtran people the same as your ramp, gate agent, FAs, and pilots, your ATL operation will be your SLOWEST. You will be getting rid of AT's XM radio and business class, so those people who did like it will migrate back over to us. And, the only way you will pay for those raises in salaries will be airfare hikes, and that will help us ALL. Thanks for that!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

You delta foucks have retirements. That's why you are screaming arbitration for us. You just want us and AT to fail. Sorry! I don't think this deal is any thing like yours. You guys are just scared. Its ok. I hope the AT guys get what they feel is fair. When it is all over, they will have the tools to kick the crap out of delta. Good luck in Atlanta.

The NW side has retirements, and most of those guys that will leave in the next 5 or 10 years have good pensions. The DL side does not have a pension (rather a DC fund currently), and that means most will stay longer. And why would we be scared? We deal with SWA on a regular basis, and we also know that to make AT into SWA, it will COST YOU BIG TIME. What does that mean? Higher fares, even in ATL. Your merger cost you over $1 billion, and paying AT employees your GREAT rates will cost even more. Then you are taking away the business class section on AT's planes, which helps us again. The XM radio deal on AT was nice, and that also will be gone. What a shame. You also will have little room to grow due to lack of gates in ATL, and if you really think you can do 15 or 20 min turns in ATL, then you really don't know what you are talking about. But, as long as you pay the AT people your same rates, I bet they will put in the effort. If you don't, well, it will be a different story. Good luck and I can't wait to see how it turns out. Oh wait, I will be the guy leaving the area for Europe and points way South. Tell me how it turns out, please.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[texman]

Gen, per GK the ticket prices will drop 50% in ATL. Quit trying to sell arbitration to both sides. I see what you are trying to do. Do you know for sure it is going to arbitration? Are cost will go down once growth starts. Not from a cocky stand point but this is and will not be like nwa and dal. Totaly different situation.

 

[Lear70]

If you think your 5 year Captains deserve a spot ahead of our native 11 year FO's you're crazy as hell.

That includes your November 2001 hires Ty.

Gup

We have 5 year Captains? Who knew?

 

[redflyer65]

Gen, you have no fight. Your post are one of frustration and self pain felt by your arbitration award. Please stop the self BS.

Great post.

 

[The Prussian]

I don't think "precedent" plays a role. I think every SLI is different.

But then again, precedent, in the case of the Nic decision, may play a huge role in how it didn't work...

and yes, I agree that every SLI is very different...

 

[On Your Six]

But then again, precedent, in the case of the Nic decision, may play a huge role in how it didn't work...

and yes, I agree that every SLI is very different...

One thing is also clear with arbitration, which is there will be both SWA and Airtran pilots at the combined bottom of the list, unless there are any newhires since the merger announcement. They would be stapled. There is plenty of precedent for that. That is something you guys are going to have to accept.


OYS