Steve 737
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SWA 1000 PIC Turbine Requirement
- Thread starter Steve 737
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atpcliff
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Hi!
Just to clarify, it's 1000 PIC Turbine AIRPLANE.
You can fly an F-16, or a caravan-they're both turbine, airplane
It's NOT 1000 PIC Turbine ME.
A ME Jet Helo does not count as it's helo.
Yes, it does suck that you have to have the PIC when some pilots have so much heavy 121 SIC experience.
A lot of places have some type of PIC requirement.
AirTran requries 500 PIC 121 (or military equivalent). I don't know what the mil equivalent means. So, for them, 135, fractional, or corporate guys don't qualify.
Cliff
DTW
Just to clarify, it's 1000 PIC Turbine AIRPLANE.
You can fly an F-16, or a caravan-they're both turbine, airplane
It's NOT 1000 PIC Turbine ME.
A ME Jet Helo does not count as it's helo.
Yes, it does suck that you have to have the PIC when some pilots have so much heavy 121 SIC experience.
A lot of places have some type of PIC requirement.
AirTran requries 500 PIC 121 (or military equivalent). I don't know what the mil equivalent means. So, for them, 135, fractional, or corporate guys don't qualify.
Cliff
DTW
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Falconjet
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military equivalent
Military equivalent just means were you the PIC of an airplane with the responsibilities equivalent to the PIC responsibilities of a 121 PIC. Without such language they would be excluding military pilots with lots of PIC time but no 121 PIC time.
My guess as to why this is a minimum is because they are hiring you to be a captain, and they want pilots who have already demonstrated to at least their former employees (121 or military) that they are capable of being a PIC. No better way to prove it I guess than by living it.
Military equivalent just means were you the PIC of an airplane with the responsibilities equivalent to the PIC responsibilities of a 121 PIC. Without such language they would be excluding military pilots with lots of PIC time but no 121 PIC time.
My guess as to why this is a minimum is because they are hiring you to be a captain, and they want pilots who have already demonstrated to at least their former employees (121 or military) that they are capable of being a PIC. No better way to prove it I guess than by living it.
Steve 737
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Due to this 1000 PIC Turbine requirement, I think SWA is passing over a lot of good people with a lot of airline experience and tons of 737 time who happened to be in the unfortunate position of being stuck at the very bottom of a seniority list for 14 years or more. Also, many of us do have PIC turbine time from our commuter days, but just did not quite make it to the 1000 mark. Seems like the sheer amount of total and 737 time would more than make up for being a handful of hours short on the PIC Turbine.
atpcliff
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Hi!
What is "Military Equivalent" for AirTran.
Does C-5/-141/-130/-9 (multiple crewmembers) PIC time count?
Does F-15E/F-14/T-38 IP (two crew members) PIC count?
DOes F-16/A-10/F-18 (only 1 crew) PIC count?
Does OH-58 PIC (mil helo, only 1 crew) PIC count?
Does MH-53 (mil helo, a lot of crewmembers) PIC count?
I'd like to know.
Cliff
DTW
What is "Military Equivalent" for AirTran.
Does C-5/-141/-130/-9 (multiple crewmembers) PIC time count?
Does F-15E/F-14/T-38 IP (two crew members) PIC count?
DOes F-16/A-10/F-18 (only 1 crew) PIC count?
Does OH-58 PIC (mil helo, only 1 crew) PIC count?
Does MH-53 (mil helo, a lot of crewmembers) PIC count?
I'd like to know.
Cliff
DTW
SWAdude
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Steve,
I agree with you. Just think of all the great people we passed up when we required the 737 type to even apply!!!
Many of us have griped about these points for years. At least you don't need the type now to get an interview.
By the way...how much PIC turbine time do you have???
SWAdude
I agree with you. Just think of all the great people we passed up when we required the 737 type to even apply!!!
Many of us have griped about these points for years. At least you don't need the type now to get an interview.
By the way...how much PIC turbine time do you have???
SWAdude
Swerpipe
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My advice
Steve 737,
A friend of mine was exactly on the same predicament as you are, +10,000 but w/out the 1000 PIC turbine and he went back and flew a King Air 200 to qualify. Now he has the time.
I see you were a Metro driver so was I. There are a few people that will hire you for a Metro job freight or Part 91. Don't mention anything about needing another 50 hours for SWA. But that should get you to your 1000 PIC turbine. All you need is 1 to 1.5 months and you'll be there... Good luck
Steve 737,
A friend of mine was exactly on the same predicament as you are, +10,000 but w/out the 1000 PIC turbine and he went back and flew a King Air 200 to qualify. Now he has the time.
I see you were a Metro driver so was I. There are a few people that will hire you for a Metro job freight or Part 91. Don't mention anything about needing another 50 hours for SWA. But that should get you to your 1000 PIC turbine. All you need is 1 to 1.5 months and you'll be there... Good luck
reepicheep
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Falconjet
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PIC Time
Cliff: My guess would be:
Yes
Yes
Yes
No
No
But I don't work for Airtran, I'm sure somebody who does could tell you if they accept helo time at all.
The equivalency isn't in the equipment necessarily, but in being the designated PIC in a turbine airplane. That means simply that you were the Aircraft Commander who actually signed for the jet in the military. Since in the military there are often 2 ACs flying together you can still only have one of them as the PIC. The one who is designated the PIC and signs for the aircraft is the one who would be able to log equivalent PIC time as far as the airlines are concerned.
Some pilots try to use the alternate definition of PIC to boost their PIC time. Since both pilots are Aircraft Commanders and capable of signing for the aircraft, they might try to both claim PIC time for the entire flight, or at least for the time they were the sole manipulator of the controls. Thats not what the companies are looking for. They only want the PIC time logged for the actual, designated PIC, regardless of who was manipulating the controls.
It can actually work against junior military pilots because sometimes when they first make Aircraft Commander they still end up flying with senior Aircraft Commanders, and usually the senior AC is designated as the PIC, so the junior pilot can't log PIC time for that flight. That is why they are always whining to get on the schedule as the PIC AC, not the CP AC, and for good reason.
FJ
Cliff: My guess would be:
Yes
Yes
Yes
No
No
But I don't work for Airtran, I'm sure somebody who does could tell you if they accept helo time at all.
The equivalency isn't in the equipment necessarily, but in being the designated PIC in a turbine airplane. That means simply that you were the Aircraft Commander who actually signed for the jet in the military. Since in the military there are often 2 ACs flying together you can still only have one of them as the PIC. The one who is designated the PIC and signs for the aircraft is the one who would be able to log equivalent PIC time as far as the airlines are concerned.
Some pilots try to use the alternate definition of PIC to boost their PIC time. Since both pilots are Aircraft Commanders and capable of signing for the aircraft, they might try to both claim PIC time for the entire flight, or at least for the time they were the sole manipulator of the controls. Thats not what the companies are looking for. They only want the PIC time logged for the actual, designated PIC, regardless of who was manipulating the controls.
It can actually work against junior military pilots because sometimes when they first make Aircraft Commander they still end up flying with senior Aircraft Commanders, and usually the senior AC is designated as the PIC, so the junior pilot can't log PIC time for that flight. That is why they are always whining to get on the schedule as the PIC AC, not the CP AC, and for good reason.
FJ
Falconjet
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Another thought about PIC time
The PIC requirement for different airlines is something that pilots should consider before leaving their current job, particularly the junior military pilots. Just because you can get out (obligation over) doesn't mean its the best time to get out. If you can do another year with the guard or active duty it may be worth it in the long run to rack up another year of PIC time to ensure that you will have the mins for whatever airline suits your fancy later on down the line. The first job offer might not be the last place you end up working.
This might also be true of the first job offer for a commuter pilot (in times of brisk hiring, obviously not now). It may be better to upgrade with the current company and get the 1000 or 1500 (to be sure) hours of PIC time before taking another job so that in the unlikely (?) event of a furlough or BK you have options with other companies.
No flameing intended, just some food for thought for those who might be looking to move on.
FJ
The PIC requirement for different airlines is something that pilots should consider before leaving their current job, particularly the junior military pilots. Just because you can get out (obligation over) doesn't mean its the best time to get out. If you can do another year with the guard or active duty it may be worth it in the long run to rack up another year of PIC time to ensure that you will have the mins for whatever airline suits your fancy later on down the line. The first job offer might not be the last place you end up working.
This might also be true of the first job offer for a commuter pilot (in times of brisk hiring, obviously not now). It may be better to upgrade with the current company and get the 1000 or 1500 (to be sure) hours of PIC time before taking another job so that in the unlikely (?) event of a furlough or BK you have options with other companies.
No flameing intended, just some food for thought for those who might be looking to move on.
FJ
SWAdude
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Falconjet,
No offense but your way off the mark. Your talking about the crystal ball theory. We would all be better off if we had that insight.
Seniority is king. You have got to get that number. Thats the difference that makes all the difference in your quaility of life. Like whether you get furloughed or not.
SWAdude
No offense but your way off the mark. Your talking about the crystal ball theory. We would all be better off if we had that insight.
Seniority is king. You have got to get that number. Thats the difference that makes all the difference in your quaility of life. Like whether you get furloughed or not.
SWAdude
MachBuffet
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Interesting Logic
It is nice to see that some people understand the unfortunate need to bite it sometimes in order to "appear" more qualified. I learned long ago, from those much more experienced than me, that the only thing that will matter when job searching are the numbers in the good columns in your log book. I got two college degrees, an A+P, all my instructor ratings, and chose to work for a dirt-bad freight operator (C-210) as soon as I was insurable. I whored myself out for a while, then moved on to another dirt-bag (Kalitta Flying Service) operator. This time, I was burning Jet-A so the sting wasn't as harsh. With more lightening speed, I was hired by Vanguard with the promise that I would be in the left seat of a 737 in about 9 months, they needed guys with a lot of jet pic for expansion. Promise was kept. For the lowly pay of about $67/hour, I got to be in the left seat of a 737-200. Pathetic, I know, but it was a means to an end. I knew I would not be there any longer than I had to, they used me, I used them. Two years later, a DC9 type, and I was in the left seat of an MD80 at about $80/hr. In the 12 years since I jumped into this crazy career with both feet, I have only been in the right seat of anything for a grand total of 18 months. I could've chosen the traditional path of CFI/Commuter/National/Major, but that was not the quickest way to get the "good numbers" to me. I am right where I want to be in my career, I got hired by the only airline I wanted to work for. I did what I had to do to get the numbers that I needed. Some chose a shiny airplane with chicks in back. Some want a job near their home. Some just wanted a big watch, personalized plates and a hat to wear on the drive to/from the airport. Some simply paint themselves into a financial corner and can't quit for the next good thing that comes up. Lots of reasons for what people do. Let's not bash our peers so harshly. This whole site is full of criticisms of others who do the same job, but with a different paint job and different pay/work rules. According to a lot of people on this site, by taking a job at Vanguard, I was dragging down the industry. To me, it was infinitely better than flying a Dash-8, Beech 1900 or jungle jet around for less pay. To paraphrase another statement on this site, "I was not about to be miserable any longer than I had to to improve the quality of life of those who had already made it to the job I wanted." We do what we can to get to where we want. If the hiring process was even remotely objective, pilots would not have to throw so many spears at each other. I've been in hiring and training positions and my stomach still aches when I remember the things I was influenced to do by the higher-ups. Hire this person, or, give this person one more 4 day trip to get them up to speed, etc., because they needed a square peg in a square hole. Professionalism is measured by skill and attitude, not payscale. Can't we all just get along?
It is nice to see that some people understand the unfortunate need to bite it sometimes in order to "appear" more qualified. I learned long ago, from those much more experienced than me, that the only thing that will matter when job searching are the numbers in the good columns in your log book. I got two college degrees, an A+P, all my instructor ratings, and chose to work for a dirt-bad freight operator (C-210) as soon as I was insurable. I whored myself out for a while, then moved on to another dirt-bag (Kalitta Flying Service) operator. This time, I was burning Jet-A so the sting wasn't as harsh. With more lightening speed, I was hired by Vanguard with the promise that I would be in the left seat of a 737 in about 9 months, they needed guys with a lot of jet pic for expansion. Promise was kept. For the lowly pay of about $67/hour, I got to be in the left seat of a 737-200. Pathetic, I know, but it was a means to an end. I knew I would not be there any longer than I had to, they used me, I used them. Two years later, a DC9 type, and I was in the left seat of an MD80 at about $80/hr. In the 12 years since I jumped into this crazy career with both feet, I have only been in the right seat of anything for a grand total of 18 months. I could've chosen the traditional path of CFI/Commuter/National/Major, but that was not the quickest way to get the "good numbers" to me. I am right where I want to be in my career, I got hired by the only airline I wanted to work for. I did what I had to do to get the numbers that I needed. Some chose a shiny airplane with chicks in back. Some want a job near their home. Some just wanted a big watch, personalized plates and a hat to wear on the drive to/from the airport. Some simply paint themselves into a financial corner and can't quit for the next good thing that comes up. Lots of reasons for what people do. Let's not bash our peers so harshly. This whole site is full of criticisms of others who do the same job, but with a different paint job and different pay/work rules. According to a lot of people on this site, by taking a job at Vanguard, I was dragging down the industry. To me, it was infinitely better than flying a Dash-8, Beech 1900 or jungle jet around for less pay. To paraphrase another statement on this site, "I was not about to be miserable any longer than I had to to improve the quality of life of those who had already made it to the job I wanted." We do what we can to get to where we want. If the hiring process was even remotely objective, pilots would not have to throw so many spears at each other. I've been in hiring and training positions and my stomach still aches when I remember the things I was influenced to do by the higher-ups. Hire this person, or, give this person one more 4 day trip to get them up to speed, etc., because they needed a square peg in a square hole. Professionalism is measured by skill and attitude, not payscale. Can't we all just get along?
learflyer
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Excuse me if I missed it in this thread, but doesn't SWA allow the PART 1 logging of pic turbine to count towards the 1000 pic if you are typed? I've even created a column in my logbook titled: "sole manipulator , turbine pic, far part 1." Is this wrong?
I am one of those guys whose been stuck in the right seat forever also. At the same time I will not sell myself short. If it's legal i'm going to do it!
I am one of those guys whose been stuck in the right seat forever also. At the same time I will not sell myself short. If it's legal i'm going to do it!
Falconjet
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On the mark, get set, go!
SWADude: None taken! Yes seniority is everything. I understand that loud and clear. All I'm saying is that it is something to consider. Look at the guys from USAir who obviously were hired a long time ago without the PIC mins to make them competitive in today's market. Perhaps another 6 months at their prior employer would have gotten them enough PIC time to be competitive now. (I'm not saying they aren't competitive because they are certainly qualified, its the company saying they need more PIC time, not me!).
No, nobody has a crystal ball, and I'm sure none of them ever imagined getting furloughed with 15 years in and never having upgraded. What I'm saying is that people should use the experience of these unfortunate USAir guys and learn from it. Bad things can and do happen in this industry. Its not fair. It sucks. But things happen. So guys complaining that they don't have the basic mins when they are jumping ship at the earliest opportunity MAY want to CONSIDER all of the possible impacts of that decision.
If you get on with your number one choice and never get furloughed or have the company go belly up, yes you made the right choice to leave. If, on the other hand, you end up like the USAir guys, you were very unlucky, and you must now go find some more PIC time. Only time will reveal the correct choice, I just think we can all learn from this situation.
For those considering the jump, SWADude is 100% correct, seniority is king. Getting the bare minimum PIC time for the entire market and not just the lowest carrier hiring is just a little insurance plan that hopefully you'll never need.
FJ
SWADude: None taken! Yes seniority is everything. I understand that loud and clear. All I'm saying is that it is something to consider. Look at the guys from USAir who obviously were hired a long time ago without the PIC mins to make them competitive in today's market. Perhaps another 6 months at their prior employer would have gotten them enough PIC time to be competitive now. (I'm not saying they aren't competitive because they are certainly qualified, its the company saying they need more PIC time, not me!).
No, nobody has a crystal ball, and I'm sure none of them ever imagined getting furloughed with 15 years in and never having upgraded. What I'm saying is that people should use the experience of these unfortunate USAir guys and learn from it. Bad things can and do happen in this industry. Its not fair. It sucks. But things happen. So guys complaining that they don't have the basic mins when they are jumping ship at the earliest opportunity MAY want to CONSIDER all of the possible impacts of that decision.
If you get on with your number one choice and never get furloughed or have the company go belly up, yes you made the right choice to leave. If, on the other hand, you end up like the USAir guys, you were very unlucky, and you must now go find some more PIC time. Only time will reveal the correct choice, I just think we can all learn from this situation.
For those considering the jump, SWADude is 100% correct, seniority is king. Getting the bare minimum PIC time for the entire market and not just the lowest carrier hiring is just a little insurance plan that hopefully you'll never need.
FJ
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