"Suspected Sleeping go! (Mesa) Pilots Fired"

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Who cares? They chose to work there. Even if they didn't know how Mesa was before they were hired, they surley Knew by this point.

So when you find yourself in a struggle...maybe like these pilots.... no one caring about you is satisfactory?

 

[30West]

Snore detectors will be powered by the battery BUS.

Hey man that's profiling. Unfairly singling out crewmembers who snore.
Profiling is WRONG!

 

[DoinTime]

For something like this it does.

They won't be working in the passenger airline industry anymore.

In 5 years their PRIA records will be squeaky clean. They are just going to have to suck it up and work a crappy US job until then or get into the international pilot leasing market. There are no PRIA rules on the international scene.

 

[FR8mastr]

Actually it's an option on 757s 767s 777s, and possibly others. United has it on the above. After a certain amount of time with no interaction with the flight guidance panel a yellow "crew response" message appears on the EICAS. If nothing is done about it ie flicking the heading bug, a nice alarm goes off. I've seen this a couple of times while jumpseating.

So you have to flick switches you don't have to flick, just to make the plane happy? Why would they not include the PTT? Do you know how long a time frame this is?

 

[Lance Uppercut]

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ASH1002/history/20080213/1929Z/PHNL/PHTO

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[plucky]

they admitted it.

http://kgmb9.com/main/content/view/5870/169/

I'm not aware of any definitive statement by the FAA or Mesa that these two pilots were actually asleep . . .as opposed to nordo, not paying attention, etc. Just a bunch of hearsay and sensationalist innuendo.

Getting fired from Mesa doesn't really mean much. ALPA at Mesa is pretty weak. Frankly, I'm surprised they lasted as long as they did.

I'm still waiting for some sort of ruling by the FAA.

 

[RJP]

So you have to flick switches you don't have to flick, just to make the plane happy? Why would they not include the PTT? Do you know how long a time frame this is?

It's not all that long. Someone here must know the actual time before the warning goes off. First, there's a "crew response" message on the EFIS display, then, if that's not responded to, there's an aural warning (beeping/chime-type thing), then if that doesn't work, it alerts dispatch and they SELCAL the crew. If that doesn't wake the dead, nothing will.

And why would they push to talk while on an all-night, over-water track to Europe or Asia? There's no one to talk to. It's all automated position reports.

 

[purduej]

We had the Mesa ALPA fatigue guy in our jumpseat after this happened and he showed us the schedule, it looked pretty brutal. Both at the end of four or five days on, early shows. Prior to that group of days on they had two days off preceded by something like five days on but PM shifts. The guy said they always schedule like that, AM or PM shifts and they often alternate. Sounds like a good chance of fatigue.

 

[Soverytired]

http://kgmb9.com/main/content/view/5870/169/

Fascinating. Although I really do wonder who their unnamed "sources" were (disgruntled ex-Aloha pilots, perhaps?) Plenty of errors in some of their previous reporting about this very incident. Nevertheless.

This was quite interesting:

"We've learned, after the incident he was admitted to Standford Medical Center, where he was diagnosed with a severe case of sleep apnea. "


[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Sounds like it was a medical issue for the captain. Very difficult to excuse the FO though, assuming what is reported here is accurate.

Both were fired because they failed to tell the company (supposedly), which I actually agree with. The lie is worse than the actual crime and all that.

This was also good:

[/FONT]"The N-T-S-B won't comment until it's report is released. But we've learned its focusing a significant portion of it's investigation into pilot fatigue, a big problem in the industry."

Frankly, if this leads to some much needed regulatory changes, I think they're have done everyone a huge favor.

 

[Soverytired]

In 5 years their PRIA records will be squeaky clean. They are just going to have to suck it up and work a crappy US job until then or get into the international pilot leasing market. There are no PRIA rules on the international scene.

Maybe. Maybe not. I don't think revocations ever fall off.

 

[cheerios2]

boeing= 20 min, PTT resets timer. IF you equip that option..

first its an EICAS msg, then two stages of audio.

 

[TWA]

Ok, so say these two guys hurried their asses up and filed some NASA reports after this happened, would that of possibly saved their careers?

I have to agree with the company in letting these guys go, you just can't allow that kind of sh!t to go on.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Soverytired,

Why do you so often sound much like a management guy (wolf) in pilots (sheeps) clothing when you discuss things?

Just curious if you are or not.

Thanks.

 

[Soverytired]

Soverytired,

Why do you so often sound much like a management guy (wolf) in pilots (sheeps) clothing when you discuss things?

Just curious if you are or not.

Thanks.

I'm not. I hold Mesa management in the utmost contempt. My only regret in leaving Mesa when I did was that I was unable to go on strike before I left.

However, unlike the vast majority of Mesa news followers on flightinfo.com, I do NOT hold Mesa pilots in contempt. I came from their ranks, and have a great deal of respect for them. Rather than join the legions of ex-Aloha/ex-Indy pilots here who dominate this niche of flightinfo and gloat over their ballyhooed "impending" demise, I sincerely hope they make it through this mess with a re-negotiated and fair contract . . . plus a new CEO.

Take this "sleeping pilot" issue. I've been defending these guys from day one. I flew the worst possible schedules at Mesa for two years, and I can tell you . . . this happens at Mesa a great deal more than you might think. It's not pilots fault (usually) . . .it's management adhering to the letter of the law and not the spirit. Not to mention common sense (i.e. human beings need to sleep)

I believe Mesa management knows it, doesn't care, and will happily risk passengers lives by sending tired pilots out to fly as long as they can tell the FAA they followed the duty time regs . .. it's the pilots job to call "fatigued", right?

Even now, when the evidence against them looks pretty damning, I'm STILL defending them, and will until there is simply no other option. This puts me in the distinct minority of posters on flightinfo, who alternately gloat simply because it's MESA pilots or who look down their nose and say "that would never happen to me."


What the hell is an Amish rake fight anyway?

 

[trolleydriver]

Here's a typical Mesa schedule

XX XXX XXXXX/XXXX POS CA DAY 01 REPORT 1140
4714 SLN MHK 1220 1247
4714 MHK MCI 1248 1330
4734 MCI HYS 1410 1520
4734 HYS GBD 1522 1553
4734 GBD MCI 1555 1655
4787 MCI COU 1715 1802
9385 COU ICT 2153 2304
9385 ICT MCI 2335 0038
4727 MCI MHK 0045 0122
4727 MHK SLN 0125 0152
D-END 0207/XX BLKT 0755 TCRD 0731
TDTY 1427

14:27 duty Duty on at 1140 Duty Off at 0207 10 legs
7:55 Block
7:31 Pay

Duty on next day at 1140. x4 a week

 

[Amish RakeFight]

What the hell is an Amish rake fight anyway?

Technically, it's a fight where two macho Amish men go round for round, fighting til the death with razor sharp prongs strung together on their labor rakes.
It also serves as an alias which will make identifying me astronomically difficult. I have this privacy issue in my personal life. It borderlines on insane.

Thanks for your response. It's just that your comments seemed a bit contrived to present a deceptive motive. A lot of hedging when it comes to MAG.

 

[RJP]

I really do wonder who their unnamed "sources" were (disgruntled ex-Aloha pilots, perhaps?)

You really are an idiot.

 

[go!ng for broke]

I'm not. I hold Mesa management in the utmost contempt. My only regret in leaving Mesa when I did was that I was unable to go on strike before I left.

However, unlike the vast majority of Mesa news followers on flightinfo.com, I do NOT hold Mesa pilots in contempt. I came from their ranks, and have a great deal of respect for them. Rather than join the legions of ex-Aloha/ex-Indy pilots here who dominate this niche of flightinfo and gloat over their ballyhooed "impending" demise, I sincerely hope they make it through this mess with a re-negotiated and fair contract . . . plus a new CEO.

Take this "sleeping pilot" issue. I've been defending these guys from day one. I flew the worst possible schedules at Mesa for two years, and I can tell you . . . this happens at Mesa a great deal more than you might think. It's not pilots fault (usually) . . .it's management adhering to the letter of the law and not the spirit. Not to mention common sense (i.e. human beings need to sleep)

I believe Mesa management knows it, doesn't care, and will happily risk passengers lives by sending tired pilots out to fly as long as they can tell the FAA they followed the duty time regs . .. it's the pilots job to call "fatigued", right?

Even now, when the evidence against them looks pretty damning, I'm STILL defending them, and will until there is simply no other option. This puts me in the distinct minority of posters on flightinfo, who alternately gloat simply because it's MESA pilots or who look down their nose and say "that would never happen to me."


What the hell is an Amish rake fight anyway?

Flightinfo has bashed mesa for years. Now it's the ex-Aloha guys. Go piissss up a rope.

 

[Soverytired]

Flightinfo has bashed mesa for years. Now it's the ex-Aloha guys. Go piissss up a rope.

Hmm.

What's the origin of the "Go!ing for broke" avatar? Hard to believe a regional pilot would create an avatar to bash Mesa. So . . . Aloha or Hawaiian?

 

[Sam Snead]

Here's a typical Mesa schedule

XX XXX XXXXX/XXXX POS CA DAY 01 REPORT 1140
4714 SLN MHK 1220 1247
4714 MHK MCI 1248 1330
4734 MCI HYS 1410 1520
4734 HYS GBD 1522 1553
4734 GBD MCI 1555 1655
4787 MCI COU 1715 1802
9385 COU ICT 2153 2304
9385 ICT MCI 2335 0038
4727 MCI MHK 0045 0122
4727 MHK SLN 0125 0152
D-END 0207/XX BLKT 0755 TCRD 0731
TDTY 1427

14:27 duty Duty on at 1140 Duty Off at 0207 10 legs
7:55 Block
7:31 Pay

Duty on next day at 1140. x4 a week

You have several two minute turns there and one one-minute turn...

nice try, unless the passengers hurled themselves out of the door as you rolled by the ramp.