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Surrender Certificate
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bobbysamd said:
It's been a while since I took Aviation Law, but is that not the book that states that if an FAA inspector takes your certificate it is a surrender of your certificate, and you should scream "bloody murder" on the ramp so he can't get away with taking it from you?
Like I said, it has been a while, so I am not sure if this was the book we used or not... but whatever book we did use, it did say that.
Nathan
CapnVegetto
The Prince of all Saiyans
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jetdriven
restraint order pending
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guys you are making a big deal about this. I have been ramp checked maybe 10 times flying as a CFI, ferry pilot, 135 freight dog, and as a 121 FO and captain. I just hand the license and medical to him and let him look at it. Call it an established level of trust, if you will. They usually write down the number and give it back to you, then do a quick walkaround and go about their business. If I am approached by a known or suspected "prick" fed, I'll take THEIR certificate and write their info down. That sure puts them on notice they are on a short leash. My lawyer can call the FSDO and raise hell not just about an "FAA guy" but about John Martin, 1456754.
two kinds of Feds I have ran across, maintenance and airmen. Maintenance feds like to look over the airplane for smoking rivets, missing or inoperable items, and inspect the maintenance records. The airmen feds are interested in the qualifications of the airman, and their manner of aircraft operation, etc.
Most of the maintenance feds wouldnt know if you took off downwind or overweight and really dont ask. The airmen type of feds wont know of the gear door bolt should have the nut facing forward or aft or the washer stacking on the nose gear of your 1900.
I have found mostly these guys are retired airline mechanics or retired (eastern, Pan AM) airline pilots who have to do a certain quota of ramp checks every month and are just out there doing their jobs.
two kinds of Feds I have ran across, maintenance and airmen. Maintenance feds like to look over the airplane for smoking rivets, missing or inoperable items, and inspect the maintenance records. The airmen feds are interested in the qualifications of the airman, and their manner of aircraft operation, etc.
Most of the maintenance feds wouldnt know if you took off downwind or overweight and really dont ask. The airmen type of feds wont know of the gear door bolt should have the nut facing forward or aft or the washer stacking on the nose gear of your 1900.
I have found mostly these guys are retired airline mechanics or retired (eastern, Pan AM) airline pilots who have to do a certain quota of ramp checks every month and are just out there doing their jobs.
Jetdriven, A few minor points...
Pilots, A&P's, Dispatchers, Parachute Riggers, Navigators, etc; are ALL Airman with Airman Certificates. Pilots are not the only "Airman".
I will not hand you my certificate. (I have on occasion as an example of a new certificate or as an example for format.) But, You have no authority to ask for it. See the CFR's. I will be happy to show you my Inspector Credentials (form 110A). Each has a number on it that identifies the Inspector. (Cabin Safety and Avionics Inspectors do not usually have Airman Certificates - none is required, some are also pilots and A&P's but that is not part of their job - but they all have 110A's). If an inspector refuses to show their credentials, call the police. They may not really be who they say they are.
I agree with many of your points. Most Inspectors are just doing their job, and ramp inspections is part of it. It is VERY seldom an airman refuses to hand me a certificate. I do not mind. As an old Inspector told an Airman who refused to produce his certificate, "We can do this the easy way, or we can do this the hard way, I can do both.... What is your choice?"
Some airman like to be difficult. Some times it makes my day.
JAFI
Pilots, A&P's, Dispatchers, Parachute Riggers, Navigators, etc; are ALL Airman with Airman Certificates. Pilots are not the only "Airman".
I will not hand you my certificate. (I have on occasion as an example of a new certificate or as an example for format.) But, You have no authority to ask for it. See the CFR's. I will be happy to show you my Inspector Credentials (form 110A). Each has a number on it that identifies the Inspector. (Cabin Safety and Avionics Inspectors do not usually have Airman Certificates - none is required, some are also pilots and A&P's but that is not part of their job - but they all have 110A's). If an inspector refuses to show their credentials, call the police. They may not really be who they say they are.
I agree with many of your points. Most Inspectors are just doing their job, and ramp inspections is part of it. It is VERY seldom an airman refuses to hand me a certificate. I do not mind. As an old Inspector told an Airman who refused to produce his certificate, "We can do this the easy way, or we can do this the hard way, I can do both.... What is your choice?"
Some airman like to be difficult. Some times it makes my day.
JAFI
transpac, I agree with you. I have shown my certificate to a pilot who asked. I do not normally carry it and normally do not show it just because a pilot wants to see it. The 110A is all that is required for identification. I have been asked for other identification for security purposes, no problem there. I have used my certificate as a format example to answer a question. My point was that asking to see an Inspectors certificate may not get the pilot very far. We are not required to carry one or show it to any pilot who asks and some inspectors (Cabin Safety and Avonics) do not have a certificate. What we all have is a 110A with an identifiable number.
JAFI
JAFI
No argument here Jafi. The 110A is supposed to be golden.
In regards to the "surrendering certificate" issue, I have a slightly related story to tell: I was a supervisor and had one of my guys doing an enroute a few years ago. After copying the info from the co-pilot's certificates, the ASI somehow misplaced the co-pilot's airman certificate and it stayed lost. The ASI didn't have any temporaries with him so they agreed that the PTRS information could serve as a certificate in this case. I was called somewhere along the line and briefed on the problem. The flight continued as planned, ending up in our home city late at night. I met the crew on the jetway with apologies, a fresh temporary certificate, and assurances that a permanent was on its way.
I can't imagine the agency's reaction if an Inspector decided to keep someone's certificate after inspecting it. I know the airman would get his certificate back immediately after complaining to FAA management, but I suspect it would be months or never for the Inspector to get his or her job back.
In regards to the "surrendering certificate" issue, I have a slightly related story to tell: I was a supervisor and had one of my guys doing an enroute a few years ago. After copying the info from the co-pilot's certificates, the ASI somehow misplaced the co-pilot's airman certificate and it stayed lost. The ASI didn't have any temporaries with him so they agreed that the PTRS information could serve as a certificate in this case. I was called somewhere along the line and briefed on the problem. The flight continued as planned, ending up in our home city late at night. I met the crew on the jetway with apologies, a fresh temporary certificate, and assurances that a permanent was on its way.
I can't imagine the agency's reaction if an Inspector decided to keep someone's certificate after inspecting it. I know the airman would get his certificate back immediately after complaining to FAA management, but I suspect it would be months or never for the Inspector to get his or her job back.
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TonyC
Frederick's Happy Face
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Here's what I heard:
OK, with that caveat, I can't go wrong, right?
An examiner that conducted a line check on me reminded me that there have been a few incidents where Examiner's credentials and FAA forms were stolen. He advised the following before allowing an Inspector to ride along.
First, as has been mentioned already, you should see his 110A. At our airline, the same number that appears on his 110A should be on our Flight Plan/Release beside his name.
Second, you should ask to see some form of picture identification. Government-issued documents such as Driver License or Passport are preferred. The name should match his 110A; the picture should match HIM.
Finally, you should receive an FAA Form 8430-13, Request For Access To Aircraft with the appropriate information.
If something looks suspicious, call the nearest FSDO. Bad things have happened when people gained access to the cockpit who shouldn't have. You can't be too careful these days.
Allowing him to take physical possession of the certificate in order to record your information is NOT surrendering your certificate. Be paranoid about him riding, not about him handling the certificate to look at your information.
.
OK, with that caveat, I can't go wrong, right?
An examiner that conducted a line check on me reminded me that there have been a few incidents where Examiner's credentials and FAA forms were stolen. He advised the following before allowing an Inspector to ride along.
First, as has been mentioned already, you should see his 110A. At our airline, the same number that appears on his 110A should be on our Flight Plan/Release beside his name.
Second, you should ask to see some form of picture identification. Government-issued documents such as Driver License or Passport are preferred. The name should match his 110A; the picture should match HIM.
Finally, you should receive an FAA Form 8430-13, Request For Access To Aircraft with the appropriate information.
If something looks suspicious, call the nearest FSDO. Bad things have happened when people gained access to the cockpit who shouldn't have. You can't be too careful these days.
Allowing him to take physical possession of the certificate in order to record your information is NOT surrendering your certificate. Be paranoid about him riding, not about him handling the certificate to look at your information.
.
Tony, I think you hit the nail on the head. Some minor points...
Examiners do not have credentials (110A). Examiners are pilots or mechanics (not employed by the FAA) that are authorized ONLY to give examinations for certificates.
An FAA Inspector has a specialty (in no special order - pilot, mechanic, dispatcher, Avionics or Cabin Safety) and is an FAA employee who has a 110A for access to the cockpit and for identification.
I won't go in specifics but, it is unpleasant when your credentials are lost, very unpleasant. I have not heard of someone pretending to be an inspector to gain access to the cockpit with a lost 110A. But it could happen. I have more picture ID than I care to think about. I don't mind showing it. And phone calls (when in doubt) to your FSDO/POI/Company are not a bad idea.
JAFI
Examiners do not have credentials (110A). Examiners are pilots or mechanics (not employed by the FAA) that are authorized ONLY to give examinations for certificates.
An FAA Inspector has a specialty (in no special order - pilot, mechanic, dispatcher, Avionics or Cabin Safety) and is an FAA employee who has a 110A for access to the cockpit and for identification.
I won't go in specifics but, it is unpleasant when your credentials are lost, very unpleasant. I have not heard of someone pretending to be an inspector to gain access to the cockpit with a lost 110A. But it could happen. I have more picture ID than I care to think about. I don't mind showing it. And phone calls (when in doubt) to your FSDO/POI/Company are not a bad idea.
JAFI
TonyC
Frederick's Happy Face
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JAFI said:
I stand corrected. Thank you. I should have just read the 8430-13 that I saved from the ride. It says "INSPECTOR'S NAME", "INSPECTOR'S TITLE", "INSPECTOR'S SIGNATURE" and even has pre-printed in the "PURPOSE" block the words "EN ROUTE INSPECTION". I appreciate you bringing that to our attention.
Learn somethin' ever' day - - I love this place!
.
Tony, It is an occupational hazard for me. To hear someone say an Examiner was on your jumpseat using a 8430-13 form is like a nail going across a blackboard. It is not the sound so much as the idea. Too many CFR violations to write up. I just think "They can't do that."
It would be like if you heard of a man who built his own aircraft out of parts from Home Depot and was teaching his pre teen kids to fly aerobatics with his only knowledge from a book on "how to fly".
Maybe not the best example but I hope you see my point.
JAFI
It would be like if you heard of a man who built his own aircraft out of parts from Home Depot and was teaching his pre teen kids to fly aerobatics with his only knowledge from a book on "how to fly".
Maybe not the best example but I hope you see my point.
JAFI
jetdriven said:
You haven't run across a dual-qualified or even a triple-qualified Fed yet... They have A&P/IA & CFII/ATP certs plus avionics experience.
Somehow it seems they are the most reasonable yet most complete and tough types around... You can't get anything past 'em, yet they know as well as you do that the nav light must have burned out 'in flight'.
Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein
TIS
Wing, Nosewheel, Whatever
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This is a little bit misleading. While an ASRS report won't stop enforcement procedings it will put an end to the process.A Squared said:
What will happen is you will get a letter of investigation. You will be asked at that time for your response/rebuttal statement. Have an attorney write this for you and DON'T fail to respond.
If the investigation shows cause for enforcement you will get a letter from FAA legal called an order of suspension. It will come with instructions on how to appeal. It is at this point that you will need to provide evidence of an ASRS report. Don't give up the original! Make sure that the title does not contain incriminating statements that can be used against you.
That WILL be the end of it. You will receive another letter finding that you were indeed guilty as charged but that the penalty was waived by the fact that you participated in ASRS. The violation is on your record for five years after the date of THAT letter.
TIS
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