Summary of ATA & SWA code sharing agreement

[chase]

This is about the best summary of what has transpired (according to the press)...lots of earlier articles were incomplete but as more details come out this has some of the corrected info. Some is already know but there is some new info I thought was interesting.
_____________

ATA sees Southwest as a savior
Bankrupt airline would get fresh start, powerful partner


J. George Mikelsons (left) and Southwest Airlines' Gary Kelly discuss the agreement between ATA Airlines and Southwest at The Indianapolis Star. -- Matt Detrich / The Star

Related content

• ATA Holdings Corp stock quote
• ATA Holdings Corp company information



The deal

Southwest will pay $117 million. The breakdown:
• $40 million for six ATA gates at Midway and a maintenance facility
• $40 million as a short-term loan
• $7 million as a Midway construction loan guarantee
• $30 million as a form of convertible shares

Bankruptcy process
ATA will ask the U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Indianapolis to approve the Southwest deal on Tuesday.
During the next year: ATA will give back certain planes to owners, draft a new business plan, acquire regional jets, elect a new board of directors, hire new executives and code-share flights with Southwest.

Indianapolis expansion
ATA Airlines founder J. George Mikelsons said ATA's plans to bring more flights to Indianapolis would advance.

Ownership
ATA will reorganize next year, essentially becoming a new company and issuing new stock. Here's who will get it: investors holding ATA bonds, about 53 percent; Southwest Airlines, 27.5 percent; other unsecured creditors, about 10 percent; Mikelsons and executive incentives, about 10 percent.


Consequences

What ATA's proposed deal with Southwest Airlines means to key stakeholders:
• ATA passengers: Fliers will be able to buy a ticket good for either airline on certain flights from Midway and, eventually, other cities. Might improve service and quality standards.
• ATA employees: Up to 1,500 might lose their jobs, mainly in Chicago and Indianapolis; Southwest will put them on a preferential hiring list.
• ATA shareholders: Shares eventually will be canceled and all value lost. New shares will be given to Southwest, ATA creditors and others, but not to shareholders.
• Indianapolis International Airport: Most current ATA flights will continue. Some shorter flights to the Midwest will be added next year.
• ATA: Gains a powerful partner that will bring it cash, passengers and expertise in cost savings and customer service.
• Southwest: Adds gates at Chicago Midway to expand in a key market.
Sources: Southwest executives, ATA, Indianapolis Star research


Southwest Airlines

• History: Thirty-two years ago in Texas, Rollin Kin and Herb Kelleher began Southwest as "a different kind of airline." It flew primarily between Texas cities, but by 1982, it had added New Orleans, San Francisco, Phoenix and other cities. Began service at Chicago Midway in 1985. Received great customer-satisfaction ratings and continued to add new cities through the 1990s.
• Airplanes: Southwest flies only one type of plane -- the Boeing 737 -- and has 415 of them.
• Airports: Serves 59 cities; has no international flights.
• Headquarters: Dallas
• Sales: $5.93 billion in 2003
• Key competitors: American, Delta, JetBlue
• Employees: 32,847, including 1,000 married couples. In 2003, the airline received 202,357 resumes and hired 908 employees.
• Known for: Friendly, wisecracking flight attendants and staff, who tell jokes, sing and otherwise entertain passengers and themselves. No assigned seats, no meals. Making money when no other airlines do. Its New York Stock Exchange symbol is LUV, which means Dallas Love Field.


ATA Airlines

• History: Founded in 1972 as a charter airline by J. George Mikelsons, ATA started scheduled flights in 1986. Filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy reorganization in October.
• Headquarters: Indianapolis
• Airports: Main operations are at Chicago Midway and Indianapolis International
• Sales: $1.5 billion in 2003
• Employees: 7,700, though the number could drop below 6,000
• Aircraft: 61 Boeing 757s, Saab 340 regional jets and others
• Known for: Flying hundreds of military personnel around the world and running the Ambassadair Travel Club


What is code sharing?

The code-sharing agreement between ATA and Southwest is a boon for passengers who fly both airlines.
Code-sharing pacts allow passengers (and their luggage) to transfer seamlessly from one airline to another using a single ticket.
Under the agreement, air travelers will be able to book a trip through either ATA or Southwest by drawing on the flights and airports of both airlines.
Initially, the code sharing will be available on nine nonstop flights from Chicago Midway, but Southwest Chief Executive Gary Kelly said the two airlines hope to add five more "connection points" and possibly some international flights in coming months.
With code sharing, Southwest could bring 500,000 more passengers a year to ATA at Midway, Kelly said in an interview with The Indianapolis Star.



By Ted Evanoff
[email protected]
December 17, 2004


ATA Airlines founder J. George Mikelsons was driving to Chicago from Indianapolis when the life-saving phone call came through for his troubled airline.

Longtime acquaintance Herb Kelleher, chairman of Southwest Airlines, called to ask, "Mind if I throw my hat in the ring and perhaps make a better offer?" Mikelsons remembered.

That call a few weeks ago led to the deal confirmed Thursday in which Southwest won the bankruptcy auction of ATA gates at busy Chicago Midway.

By selling Southwest six of the 14 gates as part of a $117 million package, bankrupt ATA gets a fresh start -- and a powerful partner that carries more passengers than any other airline.

Indianapolis gets to hold on to a hometown airline regarded as an economic asset for its low-fare flights, particularly to Florida and the Caribbean. ATA stakeholders welcomed the deal, and investors sent its shares soaring by more than 25 percent.

"We expect to be in a significantly stronger position," Mikelsons said Thursday during a meeting with The Indianapolis Star editorial board.

The transaction, scheduled for a hearing Tuesday in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Indianapolis, would inject much-needed cash into ATA but won't come without pain for Indianapolis.

ATA would shrink its airline fleet to about 50 jets from 61 now. As the planes depart next year, ATA's 7,700-member work force would fall by as many as 1,500 jobs, with Chicago and Indianapolis taking the most losses. The company employs 2,300 in Indianapolis.

Still, ATA's employees should fare better with Southwest than under a bid from AirTran Airways. It called for selling all 14 Chicago gates, which would have cut ATA's size by nearly half.

The AirTran deal included about $40 million in cash to tide over ATA in bankruptcy. Southwest's bid includes a $40 million loan and a capital injection in the form of a $30 million investment, giving it a 27.5 percent stake in ATA.

ATA's shares gained 26 percent Thursday, or 35 cents, to close at $1.70 a share, even though ATA officials acknowledged Thursday they likely would lose all of their value in the bankruptcy reorganization.

The Southwest deal enthused state officials, who made an emergency bailout loan to ATA in October when AirTran was the leading bidder.

"We're not just talking about preserving jobs anymore," said Mark Moore, chairman of the Indiana Transportation Finance Authority. "With Southwest in the picture, we're talking about creating more jobs."

The authority and the city of Indianapolis teamed last month on the $15.5 million emergency loan.
(continued)

 

[English]

ATA getting RJs - I wonder if that is for Chicago Express, or ATA proper?

Good news on the preferential hiring info. With a loss of 11 aircraft, hopefully the loss of employees at ATA will be minimal.

 

[chase]

Geez English you're fast!!!!

(Continued)
Now, Mikelsons predicts the airline could rehire laid-off workers in the next few years. "We expect growth," he said. The reason: Texas discount king Southwest.



The Dallas carrier hauls 70 million passengers a year, more than any other U.S. airline. And it's willing to share some of them.



As a sweetener to outbid AirTran, Kelleher threw in a code-share offer, which immediately intrigued Mikelsons.



"The more we talked about it," Mikelsons said of his conversation with Kelleher as he drove to Chicago, "the more enthusiastic I became. Herb mentioned the possibility of code sharing, and right there I almost had a wreck."



Code sharing means Southwest would share passengers with ATA on roughly nine flights out of Midway and would consider expanding the arrangement to other ATA flights and even its international routes.



By next spring, passengers using one ticket sold by ATA could fly Southwest on any of those nine flights. Luggage automatically would be transferred to the appropriate plane.



The nine routes haven't been disclosed but likely would include ATA's Boston and New York's LaGuardia routes. Southwest doesn't fly there now.



Southwest could funnel 500,000 more passengers a year to ATA at Midway. This could generate $25 million more in revenue each year for the Indianapolis airline.



That isn't huge money for ATA, now the nation's No. 10 airline with 11 million passengers a year and about $1.5 billion in revenue. But much of it could be pure profit. ATA is already paying to fly planes whose empty seats could be filled by code-share passengers.



As part of the restructuring, ATA went ahead last week with Midway flight cancellations, which were announced earlier when it looked as if it would scale down under the AirTran bid. Among the cities involved were Charlotte, N.C.; Des Moines, Iowa; Madison, Wis.; and Miami.



While lucrative for ATA, the code-share deal comes with the risk of a culture clash for the two independent airlines.



The code-share connection would set in a motion a new emphasis on service. ATA would try to make passengers who transfer to its planes as satisfied as they are on Southwest, which ranks high in quality of service.



"We have some customer service challenges to overcome," said Gary Kelly, Southwest's chief executive officer. "I think we can."



Keeping code-share passengers satisfied with quality service would be a key mission for the new management team expected at ATA next year.



The airlines could collaborate on training and might share chores such as baggage handling at certain airports, Southwest's Kelly said.



Southwest gets a say in how ATA does this. Creditors, organized as a committee, have an upper hand in the bankruptcy process. They've asked for new executives and have the authority to appoint a new seven-member board of directors for ATA next year. They would select top executives in consultation with Southwest, which would own 27.5 percent of ATA.



That would be the largest single stake in ATA, although creditors as a whole would have more ATA stock.



Southwest's Kelly said the Dallas airline has no interest in taking over ATA. He said that would force messy labor problems, such as merging pilot seniority lists.



Despite the challenges of meshing the two airlines' flights, Kelly said: "It's worth it. The Chicago opportunity is a huge opportunity."



With 19 gates now, Southwest would grow to a commanding 25 at Midway. Use of the airport by Chicago residents has soared 45 percent in eight years because of a low-fare reputation at Midway built by ATA, Southwest, Frontier and AirTran.



Call Star reporter Ted Evanoff at (317) 444-6019.

 

[chase]

Some worthless drivel.....

I’ve hesitated to put my thoughts out on the current code-sharing agreement offered by Southwest to the bankruptcy judge for approval on 21 Dec. While there are more details out now than 24 hrs ago, there will be more even still next week which will make mine & other’s “predictions”, “observations” all look rather ludicrous in hindsight. Oh well, so is the nature of forums such as this.



The immediate question for those wishing to get on at Southwest is obviously unknown and quite frankly shouldn’t play into anyone’s plans or preparations for applying or preparing for an interview at Southwest. I urge anyone to continue with the path you’ve laid out since Southwest is going to need far more pilots in the future than the current total at ATA.



Let me preface this by saying I won’t begin to speculate the pros & cons on the future of ATA. I wish them only the best as I have used them many times in the past and have been very impressed with their service to me and my family, as well as to hundreds of other airline employees around the country. You have a great company and I hope you continue to flourish.



My thoughts are on how this may benefit Southwest and its employees. SWA never goes into a venture wanting to lose money nor would ATA. Using the remaining 8 gates as collateral is wise. While abolishing the old stock and replacing it with new stock which SWA will own 27.5% of shows to me SWA expects to make money on this deal. At some point SWA would love to do nothing better than to sale its share for a sizeable gain. SWA has a culture of treating stock purchases as a way of saying “we believe in you so much we’re willing to put our money where our mouth is.”. I don’t believe that did that with Muse when we purchased them so this to me is a strong indicator SWA wants ATA to recover and not do what some critics say, suck them dry.



A hangar in MDW is a huge benefit to SWA. With more airplanes & limited hangar space around, building such a facility would cost far more than what SWA is paying for it (it is included in the 6 gates but it is still a bargain when one considers the lead time, environmental costs in an area like MDW). For pilots fewer unscheduled aircraft swaps to get an airplane to a “hangar facility” will be one benefit. This will save money & time for our company, not to mention potential productivity gains if current manning levels or at least minimal increases in manning for mx folks could occur.



The code-sharing agreement is the most intriguing aspect of the entire offer in mind. I can be criticized completely on the next subject because I have no experience at it so those experts please chime in to correct the “rookie”. Of course more info will be coming out soon about what 9 cities will be code share cities & what other 5 “hub cities” are being considered for further code share considerations. SWA gets pax all the time who call up & say I want to fly MDW to LGA. We of course now tell them we don’t fly there. With the flip of a switch in Jan (date hasn’t been announced) our reservations folks will be able to say “thanks, which times would you like to fly” & with no other effort be able to book the flight on an ATA flight, provide ATA some revenue they may not have gotten & SWA will have taken a portion of that fare. There will obviously be restrictions in both directions on who & when fares are split or partially credited too but many of the cities that ATA fly to that “may” be considered for codesharing could well be high population, large airports we currently don’t fly to. Our reservations folks will increase their productivity also (they're judge on how many calls they make & the last time I talked to folks at the res centers there is ample room for more calls to be received by the current staffing levels...increased productivity...one of Kelly's buzzwords) ATA will be able to take advantage of our marketing exposure and add money to their bottom line…doing that will make investors come to them again & their (our 27.5%) stock will become more attractive. ATA will have 50 airplanes, we have 417 (end of ’04), I’m not concerned helping ATA hurts SWA pilots, “at this time”. Folks will scream “SCOPE, SCOPE, don’t walk down that path”….I’m willing to trust the management team on making the right call on when it would be in SWA’s best interest to cut our ties with ATA if that becomes necessary.



SWA will also gain some experience & knowledge of what international operations are like as they will see first hand from being on the board of directors & getting some interesting insight to that issue. That experience will be invaluable as SWA eventually (in my opinion) ventures into those waters sometime in the future (you didn’t hear that first from me I hope!).



There are many issues that need to be worked out with the various employee groups & I’m confident all sides will look out for their members & the company’s well being.



There is no doubt SWA’s offer was to limit the growth of Air Tran into MDW. A simple business decision. Some will say it is anti-competition, I’ll let history be the judge of that.



The next statement is not meant to be inflammatory or disrespectful but I believe it is a part of this equation also. If conditions don’t permit ATA to survive, I believe SWA management has deemed it would be better for the future of SWA to have persons on the inside looking out versus being on the outside looking in. SWA, other major lienholders (GE, Boeing, etc) and the city of Chicago will want to look out for their assets in case of Ch 11 or 7 …a bankruptcy judge will make that call if it comes to that in the future….again I hope it doesn’t for the benefit of the ATA folks.



Businesses on the outside will come second to honoring those warrants and loans owed to the primary shareholders. Considering the other lienholders are major vendors/customers (Chicago) to SWA I would believe they would be inclined to support whatever would serve the best interest of Southwest if it became necessary to liquidate ATA (my apologies in advance for being maybe too blunt). Such a liquidation of assets or dispersal may be to the benefit of SWA at that time as our growth by then will have continued unabated in my opinion. Suddenly gates, routes, cities that may not have been on our map may suddenly be easily accessible with an employee group already in place (similar to a Morris buyout but who knows).



In the past SWA has shown what some deemed as fair treatment to employee groups from other carriers who faced financial crisis, Morris, Midway (various versions to include a job fair for the Midway folks in RDU), and Muse. Not everyone will view history that way, I’m not wishing to debate that point for it would take too many brain cells & I don’t have enough of them.



There are many other interesting aspects of this deal & I’m sure others will have far more insightful thoughts to it than mine. I will look forward to reading them. Again to my fellow airline employees at ATA I’m sorry for the layoffs that are to occur. I hope for the rapid return of your jobs so you can return to doing something you love. Awaiting for all the incoming opinions...I think I smell swiss cheese!!!

 

[SWA/FO]

exactly...what I was thinking

 

[General Lee]

I talked to an ATA pilot in FLL today and he said that ATA was going to get rid of the 737-800s (they were going to China he said) and they were going to swap out used Continental 737-300s that are currently sitting in the desert.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[iflyfred]

The immediate question for those wishing to get on at Southwest is obviously unknown and quite frankly shouldn’t play into anyone’s plans or preparations for applying or preparing for an interview at Southwest. I urge anyone to continue with the path you’ve laid out since Southwest is going to need far more pilots in the future than the current total at ATA.

Chase...Could you please elaborate a little more on what you meant by the above statement? Specifically, what is the immediate question and also what does the number of ATA pilots have to do with Southwest. I guess I'm just a little confused. Thank you!

 

[chase]

The immediate question for those wishing to get on at Southwest is obviously unknown and quite frankly shouldn’t play into anyone’s plans or preparations for applying or preparing for an interview at Southwest. I urge anyone to continue with the path you’ve laid out since Southwest is going to need far more pilots in the future than the current total at ATA.

Chase...Could you please elaborate a little more on what you meant by the above statement? Specifically, what is the immediate question and also what does the number of ATA pilots have to do with Southwest. I guess I'm just a little confused. Thank you!

Sorry for the confusion. Since most of the folks who come here are interested in interviewing for a major carrier, in this case SWA, I was trying to allude to the fact all of the SWA/ATA code sharing talk shouldn't alter what one's plans are in terms of getting called for an interview & preparing for an interview. All of this talk shouldn't change one's approach was my point. This would apply to all folks, not just ATA folks but for anyone who was trying to get on here. I've had folks already ask me how all of this would impact interviewing/hiring. I say who knows so stick with one's plan until something significantly changes...right now I don't believe it has.

Preferential interviews are being talked about for ATA future furloughed folks, not just pilots...some would say that is good. For pilots I've heard of numbers around 150ish ATA folks...SWA interviews 140ish a month.....how many of the ATA folks of this 150+ meet all the quals that SWA requires...PIC, turbine time, total time, etc. Some would say those shouldn't be waived & that will keep some ATA folks from qualifying for even a preferential interview. That cuts those desired preferential interview numbers down even more....spreading those folks over several months will have minimal impact potentially on the overall pool of folks who will be called.

For these reasons & more folks who are interested in SWA & want to get hired here should not worry about how the ATA/SWA deal works out...press on with the plan. Again, sorry for the confusion.

 

[atafan]

ATA pilots have been asked on this forum why we respond differently to SWA comments and activities towards our airline than a previuos discussed airline.

Chase, another gentlemen. You have addressed this thorny issue with a matter of fact yet respectful matter. Thank you!

I am still not certain of this deal. I haven't had the fortune of dealing with a corporate culture that shoots straight, I hope SWA management proves me wrong. I see tremendous potential for both companies and employee groups, I really hope that we will explore these opportunities together.

I see a collaboration of schedules out of MDW huge. If SWA and ATA can work together and not try to cut each others throat out of MDW maybe we both can make a modest profit out of this airport.

Management. I also am excited about SWA management injecting ATA management with some of their DNA. Replacing many of these management types and some middle management would be much appreciated.

Flight Operations. I know I am partial but I believe ATA Flight Ops is second to none. Our Motto: ATA Flights, doing more with less worldwide, everyday. I believe that both companies could share resources in this area for mutual benefit.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

I talked to an ATA pilot in FLL today and he said that ATA was going to get rid of the 737-800s (they were going to China he said) and they were going to swap out used Continental 737-300s that are currently sitting in the desert.

Bye Bye--General Lee

General,

That sounds like a wild rumor coming from someone tired of being asked the question. This came from Mickelson according to CBS. ATA has over 30 -800s and I would be surprised if they made such a drastic change. The '800s would support the proposed European flying.

But....they are a little big to compete on some routes. The -800s are in high demand and an exchange would put some money in ATA's pocket. This rumor might have some legs. Just like the 767 rumor....


ATA's Southwest deal eases pressure
Agreement offers flexibility
and cash to bankrupt airline

By Matt Andrejczak, CBS.MarketWatch.com
Last Update: 5:47 PM ET Dec. 16, 2004

ATA said its pending $117 million asset sale and code-sharing agreement with Southwest Airlines will allow it to keep eight of its 14 gates at Chicago's Midway Airport, expand its operations in Indiana and retain more employees if it emerges from bankruptcy.
Code sharing lets passengers transfer from one airline to another on a single ticket.

Southwest outbid AirTran Airways, which had proposed buying all of ATA's 14 gates at Midway. The deal is subject to the approval of the bankruptcy judge and Chicago city officials.

ATA said it will be a larger airline under its deal with Southwest even though it plans to pare its work force and reduce its plane fleet to 50 aircraft from 60...

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/yhoo/story.asp?source=blq/yhoo&siteid=yhoo&dist=yhoo&guid=%7B778F6C88%2D4CE2%2D40B5%2D9699%2D30F1D266E68C%7D

 

[iflyfred]

Chase...Thank you for the clarification.

 

[chase]

ATAfan,

Thanks for the generous words....whenever folks talk about "the airline business" what we're really talking about are people's lives...it is apparent sometimes this is forgotten by not just lenders, vendors & shareholders but by posters on forums also. It is still a business & SWA along with George at ATA will do what is in the long term interests of their employees, shareholders and investors but I believe that is what makes ATA & SWA (along with Airtran & JB for that matter) a little different than others....the employees are the respected by management generally and more appreciated...just my opinion. Regardless, this is a brutal business and difficult decision are ahead for the management folks at ATA & SWA to confort employee groups at both airlines in answering their competing concerns.

Certainly if nothing else the continued respect & goodwill shown to fellow crewmembers & other employees of each other's carriers will continue. SWA has thought outside the box before & succeeded....this type of venture maybe one of those experiences that will be viewed in the future as significant as when SWA moved into MDW overnight years ago & began their rise. This maybe the seed that is planted for overseas flights for SWA & success at ATA...who knows...better the optimistic than pessimist but always the realist I say.

I'd be curious to hear of other issues & answers ATA folks may have to some of their concerns & possible suggestions to "new management" on how to improve operations & increase productivity & operational efficiency.....you never know who may read your thoughts on this board !!!

 

[HalinTexas]

I'll give the first biggest concern from ATA cockpit: Scheduling efficiency. I related my current schedule to a SWA jumpseater last night. His response was typical whenever I tell a SWA pilot about our schedules.

I'm on a 4 day pairing. I picked it up in open time, but it's not an unusual trip by ATA scheduling standards. It's worth 15:00 of pay. Two layovers, one in DCA of 19:56 the next in MSP of 32:00. I'm in MSP as I right this.

ATA crewmembers have complained about this lack of efficiency over and over. I did it myself at a roadshow to George M. and Jim H. last August. They said it was the most efficient way to do things. I imagine in their narrow view in the confines of their business plan, it is. But remember, we're in bankruptcy, it's a failed business plan. It's time to start thinking outside the box. Mgt. has accused this group, and all our labor in general, of being "paid too much." We have the 2nd lowest CASM around, lower than SWA. Our block hour costs are high, but put that in perspective of crew effeciency and that can be eliminated. These block hour costs also include our charter ops. which includes lots of intercontinental positioning.

Positioning costs are pretty high, but a possible remedy to this might already have begun. Jury's out.

MARKETING, MARKETING, MARKETING!!!!!!!
ATA's the biggest airline no one ever heard of! We've gotten more press since our BK filing than the previous 32 years of our existence. I hope our new SWA-inspired managment can rectify this. This area is huge.

One issue that is coming to light. Management is already coming to us again to begin concession negotiations. This could have short and long term effects on SWA employee futures.

The ATA pilot group is enthusiastic about this codeshare and bailout, but we are cautiously optimistic. We're not terribly comfortable with the long view, because we don't know what it is. The potential for global domination, via a turn-key agreement is astounding! Other employee groups are equally, if not more, enthusiastic, but I can't/won't speak for them. I might be speaking out of turn by voicing one man's opinion of our pilot group.

If an integration of groups is in the long term offing, and it's too early to really consider this, then such and integration may not be as difficult as some would believe. I know there are specific issues such as PIC turbine and B737 types that need to be dealt with, but ATA pilots aren't in much of a position to demand much. The Morris Air deal was fair.

We're all anxious to see how all this shakes out.

 

[blzr]

I didn't know the saab 340 was a regional jet.... Again, the media, seldom right, but never in doubt

 

[Ty Webb]

I'm on a 4 day pairing. I picked it up in open time, but it's not an unusual trip by ATA scheduling standards. It's worth 15:00 of pay

.


You have got to be kidding!

Don't know about SWA, but AirTran trips average 5.5 hours of pay per day. . . . . about 81.4 hours a month pay.

 

[njcapt]

We only get duty averaging credit based on 'duty periods'. So a four day trip with a two night RON (30 hours or so) only triggers three duty periods for averaging (5:00 hours times the number of duty periods in the pairing = 15:00). This is a particularly annoying loophole in our contract. As Hal stated, our moronic management claims this saves the company money. During the dog-and-pony show Hal referred to, J. Hlavacek commented on this issue and complained about our productivity. When Hal pointedly asked him why we were spending 30 hours, sometimes TWICE in one pairing, in hotels he reminded us that ATA saved money this way. The whole crowd of skeptical pilots harumphed and sputtered like Lewis Black at this lame use of circular logic.

This is a big reason that the ATA pilots support the SWA bid. We're unsure of our future, but can't imagine Gary Kelly putting in management as stunningly stupid and unenlightened as the goobers we have now.

 

[MDP727]

The scheds at ATA are terrible. For four years now on the 737 I fly mostly 5 and 6 day trips. Our contract was limited to building pairings no more than 5 days. The company found a way around it by slipping in SJU, CUN, and PVR turns stretching the trips out to 5 days.

My last pairing was 4 days that they turn into 6 day trips. First day 1 leg to LGA 6:50 show, so you have to commute the day before. Then fly one leg and sit in the hotel. The 4 day of the trip was one leg with a late arrival in MDW. So commute home the day after. I'm in the top 50 out of 180 fo's on the airplane and most of the senor people bid reserve. Our management thinks are scheds are efficient.

 

[HalinTexas]

During the dog-and-pony show Hal referred to, J. Hlavacek commented on this issue and complained about our productivity

Good thing my wife was sitting next to me on the front row. After a couple of JH's comments I wanted to throttle the Horseshiite shoveler. My wife saw me wringing my hands and gently put her hand on my knee. JH made a good "bad cop" that day.

 

[Indapool]

Scheduling efficiency............

Min SWA pay on an originating 4 day..26 trips
Good paying 4 day..32+ trips
Avg RON around 16 hrs..could be 11 could be 19..but I haven't seen an overnight over 20 hours since I got here, except for a charter.

Just had a 2 day from my original line that was scheduled 5 legs from PHX-BDL with a 2 leg deadhead home the next day..
Called Sked and got released from the deadhead and made it home the same day....
Paid 16.11 trips for a TURN
Thats a 1200.00 day for a guy who has ben here 18 months..

Or there was the 3 day VJA that flew 14 hours and paid 42 trips last month...thats a little over 3K..or $215+ an hour..again 18 months on property.

Or the entire month that paid 153 TFP flying 69 hours..breaking out the "handy dandy notebook" tells me thats a little more than $166.00 per flight hour as an FO who has been here..say it again..18 MONTHS

Or the last 12 months that averaged out to 137.00 per flight hour, could have been alot better but the first 4 months were still at 1st year pay.

My point is if you guys are able to obtain just a few of the "effeciencies" we have now I think you will be very happy.

_____________________
"And the Monkey flips the Switch"

 

[PTinbound]

Indapool, I'm VERY happy here also, just the way things are. I can't believe I ever hear anyone complain about anything here, but I do. These are the guys are just clueless. After digging foxholes as an Army pilot in MOPP 4, 2 bankrupt commuters going out of business, and a third that just about went on strike at the beginning of this year, I'm glad to be here.

ATA folks, I know this isn't a merger or acquistion, but I'd like to think that we as the SWA pilot group would have a little more chAAracter than AAnother certain pilot group that hosed their victims completely in the recent past. Realize I'm just a probabionary FO here, but I suggested on the SWAPA forum the other day that perhaps we could at least offer guranteed interviews to all of you guys who would want one. I'd fly with you anyday. Heck, a good number of my captains from Mesaba went on to fly for ATA, and they were good folks. We wish you all the best.