Sully, welcome to Phoenix

[Scope out RJ's]

Thanks Cowboy. Thats the spirit. Good luck at your new LCC when you guys split.

M

Doosh:
Good luck to you and your east coast man love.
I hope that you have a healthy future and raise many little dooshes!

 

[TWA Dude]

Notice how every rumor or propagation of a rumor of LCC splitting up purportedly favors the East? Makes you wonder where the source of those rumors is.

 

[Colonel Savage]

I don't see how the American rumor favors the East, considering what happened at TWA.

 

[FR8mastr]

Notice how every rumor or propagation of a rumor of LCC splitting up purportedly favors the East? Makes you wonder where the source of those rumors is.

I would not really consider going to American a good thing for the East. You can ask the TWA pilots how good of a deal that was. Of course they did have ALPA in their corner.
I would think the West pilots would actually like the AA rumor.

 

[TWA Dude]

I don't see how the American rumor favors the East,.

Nor do I, but you wouldn't know that looking at the glee with which Easties speak of it.

 

[TWA Dude]

I would think the West pilots would actually like the AA rumor.

I don't like any merger rumor if it involves me. One merger put me on the street and the next one nearly so. I doubt I can survive another one.

I keep telling my AWA colleagues who think working for AMR would be better than LCC how wrong they are. I hope they don't have to find out the hard way.

 

[get2flyin]

As a member of the profession, I don't think it's fair to minimize the positives of what Sulley and "what's his name" did. USAir training is absolute GARBAGE. Maybe at one time it wasn't but right now it is. We're so caught up with identifying whether or not we're operating in our "Green, Yellow, or Red" comfort level that nobody seems to care how watered down the actual flying skills have become. When in the HELL did our procedure in an emergency evolve into "try and get the aircraft at the highest level of automation?" When did we get away from "Shut the damn automation off and fly the airplane!" Based on what I've seen come out of the schoolhouse, I can hardly blame Skiles for not pushing the Ditch pushbutton or what ever other negatives came out.

However, take away all of the other crap and these guys appear to have done exactly what you'd have wanted a pilot to do. FLY THE PLANE, come up with a plan, and execute it. They were operating in a stressful environment and their performance was commendable. It was a nice change from another "pilot error" story. In truth, I'd like to think EVERY one of us who get's paid to fly for a living believes that under similar circumstances, their outcome would be the same. It's not heroics, it's our job and what we hopefully train for in the simulator.

Sulley certainly has the background to be in the Safety Department and I'm sure he will bring positives things to that office. With that said, USAPA trying to use his star power to try and sway the jury was pretty ugly. His "My daughter asked me what integrity meant" story was contrived and should have been embarrassing for everyone in the courtroom. Particularly since the hearing was related to DFR and NOT the acceptability of the Nic award. He didn't have to volunteer his services to the union for that and I think doing so damaged his credibility as a PERSON to the West pilots, not his credibility as a Safety Manager. I don't blame USAir for offering him the position for his based on his qualifications but I certainly find it hard to believe there wasn't a public relations motive. The bottom line is, after acting as a USAPA shrill in the courthouse that tried to add fuel to the whole "West Rookies" smoke screen, he's going to have to re-earn the respect of the West pilots.

 

[LittleDeuce]

As a member of the profession, I don't think it's fair to minimize the positives of what Sulley and "what's his name" did. USAir training is absolute GARBAGE. Maybe at one time it wasn't but right now it is. We're so caught up with identifying whether or not we're operating in our "Green, Yellow, or Red" comfort level that nobody seems to care how watered down the actual flying skills have become. When in the HELL did our procedure in an emergency evolve into "try and get the aircraft at the highest level of automation?" When did we get away from "Shut the damn automation off and fly the airplane!" Based on what I've seen come out of the schoolhouse, I can hardly blame Skiles for not pushing the Ditch pushbutton or what ever other negatives came out.

However, take away all of the other crap and these guys appear to have done exactly what you'd have wanted a pilot to do. FLY THE PLANE, come up with a plan, and execute it. They were operating in a stressful environment and their performance was commendable. It was a nice change from another "pilot error" story. In truth, I'd like to think EVERY one of us who get's paid to fly for a living believes that under similar circumstances, their outcome would be the same. It's not heroics, it's our job and what we hopefully train for in the simulator.

Sulley certainly has the background to be in the Safety Department and I'm sure he will bring positives things to that office. With that said, USAPA trying to use his star power to try and sway the jury was pretty ugly. His "My daughter asked me what integrity meant" story was contrived and should have been embarrassing for everyone in the courtroom. Particularly since the hearing was related to DFR and NOT the acceptability of the Nic award. He didn't have to volunteer his services to the union for that and I think doing so damaged his credibility as a PERSON to the West pilots, not his credibility as a Safety Manager. I don't blame USAir for offering him the position for his based on his qualifications but I certainly find it hard to believe there wasn't a public relations motive. The bottom line is, after acting as a USAPA shrill in the courthouse that tried to add fuel to the whole "West Rookies" smoke screen, he's going to have to re-earn the respect of the West pilots.

get2flyin;

I know emotions are running high right now and I must admit, I agree with you on the way the Hudson accident has been politicized. However, I must call you on your statement about US Airways training as being "GARBAGE".

The "Green, Yellow or Red" comfort level you refer to is the US Airways Threat and Error Management Model. US Airways, the company we both work for is recognized as an industry leader with our Advanced Qualification Program and the use of the TEM model to mitigate and trap errors.

The accident records are full of highly competent "stick and rudder" pilots that have been involved in loss of life accidents. This was the primary reason the concept of the Advanced Qualification Program was developed in 1987.

Members of US Airways Flight Training and Standards Department are a group of highly dedicated Instructors and Check Airmen totally committed to our pilot group.

We are not perfect. We're always trying to improve our product to you the line pilot customer. Please don't slam us with an emotional outburst over the root cause of your frustration... seniority.

The next time you are in CLT, please look me up. I will take you to lunch and show you what we do here.

Best Wishes...

 

[relief tube]

over 9 months off when the f/o went to work in april.........sully pulled the right straw in this deal.

shoot, he's been off so long he's almost as dangerous as some canadian gesse. course USair pilots are old as hell, so his f/o's probably been there 15 years

 

[elguapo9]

I don't like any merger rumor if it involves me.

Well said.

 

[Colonel Savage]

Returning to flying after a long break isn't a problem for an experienced pilot. You'll understand that one day after you get, well, more experience.

 

[kf4amu]

his f/o's probably been there 15 years

I think Skiles was hired in 89....20 years....

 

[nwaredtail]

get2flyin;

I know emotions are running high right now and I must admit, I agree with you on the way the Hudson accident has been politicized. However, I must call you on your statement about US Airways training as being "GARBAGE".

The "Green, Yellow or Red" comfort level you refer to is the US Airways Threat and Error Management Model. US Airways, the company we both work for is recognized as an industry leader with our Advanced Qualification Program and the use of the TEM model to mitigate and trap errors.

The accident records are full of highly competent "stick and rudder" pilots that have been involved in loss of life accidents. This was the primary reason the concept of the Advanced Qualification Program was developed in 1987.

Members of US Airways Flight Training and Standards Department are a group of highly dedicated Instructors and Check Airmen totally committed to our pilot group.

We are not perfect. We're always trying to improve our product to you the line pilot customer. Please don't slam us with an emotional outburst over the root cause of your frustration... seniority.

The next time you are in CLT, please look me up. I will take you to lunch and show you what we do here.

Best Wishes...

Since you may be in "know", it's seems to be common knowledge that the ditching PB was not pushed in prior to actually ditching. It is also rumored that the thrust levers were never pushed forward to TOGA after the bird strikes. True/False? can't say? Any more details out there?

Although I think the crew did a fine job, I think most pilots would have done the same thing given the choice of water or cement/buildings. Lots of things fell into place to make it a good outcome, ie water near airport, good WX, calm water, proximity of rescue workers.

For me, Sully's credibility went to just south of crap when he spoke at the USAPA trial. Sorry, but thats the opinion of most outside "lookers".

 

[LittleDeuce]

Ditching

Since you may be in "know", it's seems to be common knowledge that the ditching PB was not pushed in prior to actually ditching. It is also rumored that the thrust levers were never pushed forward to TOGA after the bird strikes. True/False? can't say? Any more details out there?

Although I think the crew did a fine job, I think most pilots would have done the same thing given the choice of water or cement/buildings. Lots of things fell into place to make it a good outcome, ie water near airport, good WX, calm water, proximity of rescue workers.

For me, Sully's credibility went to just south of crap when he spoke at the USAPA trial. Sorry, but thats the opinion of most outside "lookers".

We were briefed that the ditching Push Button was not pushed in. The Dual Engine Failure checklist was designed for high altitude and they just did not have time to get to it. We were also briefed that it would not have mattered due to the structural damage in the rear of the aircraft.

We have just completed a QRH review and made some changes as a result.

I do not recall anything about going to TOGA.

 

[Bringupthebird]

From Little Deuce

The "Green, Yellow or Red" comfort level you refer to is the US Airways Threat and Error Management Model. US Airways, the company we both work for is recognized as an industry leader with our Advanced Qualification Program and the use of the TEM model to mitigate and trap errors.

Errors that often times would not have been there but for the lack of training or a procedure that accomodates an inadequate system. AQP is a huge money saver and the pilots and what passes for a union go along with it because they don't like sitting in class.

Members of US Airways Flight Training and Standards Department are a group of highly dedicated Instructors and Check Airmen totally committed to our pilot group.

Here I am in perfect agreement, but they are given less and less to work with because of AQP and it's emphasis on saving money.

The FAA has lowered the bar for all airlines. As staff is cut and forced to do more with less, they need to lower that bar if for no other reason than to make their oversight responsibilities manageable. The airlines don't argue when the FAA offers to look the other way and permit airlines to train by correspondence school and save them millions. And when was the last time the FAA was a causal factor in a fatal accident?

The pendulum of training has swung far to one side and in doing so, it proves that an acceptable level of losses can be contained with minimal training. After all, the Airbus cockpit of tomarrow will be filled with the pilots signing up for RJ jobs that offer $20K a year today. And folks who pursue $20K careers can't honestly be expected to grasp the intricacies of how an AC electrical system works or why swept wings behave the way they do. "If a light comes on- push a button! And if you can't keep from screwing that up, we'll automate it and take the button away!"

Even management knows that if you expect to attract the best, you are competeing with some pretty high-paying alternative career paths (engineering, medical, talk-radio). They've just found an affordable alternative courtesy of AQP.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Ouch, you're chock full of grumpy indeed! I don't think Delta pilots have any patent on landing at the wrong airport!

Don't Ever Land There Again :laugh:

 

[Bringupthebird]

I would think the West pilots would actually like the AA rumor.

No most west pilots would prefer the rumor that Bill Franke was being tapped to run the east-merged airline.

 

[ableone]

get2flyin;

I know emotions are running high right now and I must admit, I agree with you on the way the Hudson accident has been politicized. However, I must call you on your statement about US Airways training as being "GARBAGE".

The "Green, Yellow or Red" comfort level you refer to is the US Airways Threat and Error Management Model. US Airways, the company we both work for is recognized as an industry leader with our Advanced Qualification Program and the use of the TEM model to mitigate and trap errors.

The accident records are full of highly competent "stick and rudder" pilots that have been involved in loss of life accidents. This was the primary reason the concept of the Advanced Qualification Program was developed in 1987................................

Best Wishes...

There is no re-current training in AQP - only a minimum amount of checking.

After the merger procedures and checklists were changed and all training was done via computer based training. Nothing in the sim.

Procedures continue to change yet we see a simulator once a year instead of once every six months.

Soon SAAAR RNAV training will be required in the sim. No increase in sim time will occur. Something else will be deleted.

AQP is 85% about saving money.

You will notice that the FAA has not approved any more AQP programs for 121 operators.

 

[LittleDeuce]

There is no re-current training in AQP - only a minimum amount of checking.

After the merger procedures and checklists were changed and all training was done via computer based training. Nothing in the sim.

Procedures continue to change yet we see a simulator once a year instead of once every six months.

Soon SAAAR RNAV training will be required in the sim. No increase in sim time will occur. Something else will be deleted.

AQP is 85% about saving money.

You will notice that the FAA has not approved any more AQP programs for 121 operators.

Ableone;

Please Sir. You're understanding of AQP is somewhat confused. Please allow me to help you understand the concept and background.

AQP is a safety related training program and has nothing to do with saving money. Actually, the reason why a lot of 121 operators have not gone into AQP is because it's voluntary and the initial ISD development costs are high.

The reason why the procedures and checklists were changed as a result of the merger was the company decided to use the Best Practices approach between the East and West. The use of Flows as memory items is based on some significant Human Factors research (Google On The Design of Flightdeck Procedures by Weiner & Dagani).

The first 5 simulator sessions during the Qualification Curriculum are all maneuvers based training.

AQP does not use the term recurrent. It's referred to CQT Continuing Qualification Training. CQT is completed once a year as a 3 day event. Day 1 is a ground school review. Day 2 is a 4 hour simulator training session. Day 3 is a Line Oriented Evaluation.

Pilot proficiency is empirically validated and supports the Single Visit Training concept. Airlines have the flexibility to adjust the evaluation cycle based on their empirical data. (i.e. some airlines bring their long haul crews back in 8 months due to the issues relating degradation of proficiency).
Distance Learning (DL) has nothing to do with AQP it's just an effective training delivery system for Non Aircraft Specific Training (de-icing, Security etc.)

RNP SAAR is new for this year. It is a work in progress and still being developed. We move training objectives around all the time based on operational exposure to threats and ASAP, FOQA, and other integrated data.

May I suggest taking at look on the FAA.gov Web Site in the FSIMS and you will get some great explanations of the concepts.

I enjoy reading these boards and usually do not respond. This is twice today I felt compeld to correct some mis-statements.

Fly Safe

 

[vetrider]

My only real complaint about AQP training is that you are only in the simulator once a year. While I don't relish going into the sim necessarily, I feel it is necessary every six months, and I always feel better after I come out of it.