Stupid anti-terrorist idea

[Swede]

A non-pilot suggested the following as an anti-hijacking concept. Initially I thought "no way" but there are elements which might work.

A guarded "Hijack" switch is installed into the jet. Upon attempted forced entry, a pilot would press and hold the switch for, say, 4 seconds. When activated, the system would do the following...

1) In all cases the autopilot would engage, and the jet would climb to, or descend to, a safe altitude determined by the FMS for the given topography, i.e. "Level Change" to 10,000' in a wings level manner. It would then continue straight and level until the system is deactivated or the jet runs out of fuel.

2) The autopilot would lock out, and could ONLY be unlocked with a 4 or 6 digit code entered into the FMC.

3) Jet could also use comm systems to alert authorities the system is engaged.

Accidental engagement would be embarrassing, but not dangerous. If the bad guys make it into the seats, they couldn't fly the airplane anywhere. No pilot these days would reveal the code given that death is imminent anyhow.

There are elements to this scheme that might work with transport aircraft w/FMS. The big objection of course is ANY system which potentially could "take control" of the aircraft.

Thoughts?

 

[Swass]

Very interesting idea. What would keep the bad guys from getting the code, given how easy it is to get information via hackers etc. The only way to guard against it would be to change the code everytime (which is probably the idea you had). Do you think that it would work, changing the code everytime? I myself feel that it would be a good deterrent.

 

[jackotron]

Accidental engagement would be embarrassing, but not dangerous. QUOTE]

I believe that it would be dangerous, cosidering that the FAA would scrable the fighter jets to shoot you down.

 

[rumpletumbler]

Not sure about this idea but El Al who is way ahead of the game....never had a hijacking.......profiles to hell and back etc.....is installing flare systems on all of its aircraft which I think is a great idea. Its only a matter of time.

 

[Immelman]

...or you could have it tell the FMS to auto-land at the nearest airport with that capability. unless there isn't enough gas, then make it glide!

 

[IP076]

Very interesting idea. What would keep the bad guys from getting the code, given how easy it is to get information via hackers etc. The only way to guard against it would be to change the code everytime (which is probably the idea you had). Do you think that it would work, changing the code everytime? I myself feel that it would be a good deterrent.

I thought about that changing the code everytime too...but how do you let the crew know what the code is everytime? A printout from the FMS which generated the new code? Now you have a piece of paper with the code on it floating around the cockpit while the terrorists enter!

 

[rumpletumbler]

or just sticky note it to the windscreen.

 

[MarineGrunt]

Or you could just do it the old fashioned way - give em two in the chest and one in the head... problem solved for only 75 cents! But as far as the proposed system goes, I don't think it's too bad of an idea... Maybe the code can be pre-set before takeoff by the pilot
(using a number he'll remember - birthday, phone #, etc) so only he and the FO know it. Unless the terrorist is a mind reader, he's out of luck.

 

[Swede]

Or you could just do it the old fashioned way - give em two in the chest and one in the head... problem solved for only 75 cents!

I've always been onboard for your solution, but I thought this guy's proposal was imaginative.

Whoops, I just thought of an issue which would make this more expensive to implement. As proposed, the system would be mostly software, but most autopilots are designed to disengage when overriden with enough force, at least older Boeings. Any fly-by-wire airplane could probably do this setup a lot easier than older transports, as the pressure transducers in the column, designed to allow A/P override, can probably be disengaged via software with the same "hijack" switch.

 

[rumpletumbler]

Are those pork tipped cartridges?

 

[ShawnC]

Speaking about the code system, one way you could do it is via pilot assigned codes. Each pilot would insert a ID token of some sort (only removable after landing), and each pilot would have their own code to unlock.

It's more guessable than one time codes, but it's more secure since the pilot would only have to remember one code.

But I think that two in the chest one in the head is a better system for dealing with hijackers.

 

[mar]

Not so stupid, but mine's better...

I don't know why my idea hasn't taken off yet:

I think the cockpit should be sealed off from the main cabin. Completely. On the ground you enter through a separate door. You use a separate lav and a separate galley. There is no access to the main cabin.

Of course this may be a problem for checking the wings for snow and ice before takeoff or looking at the engines and wings during an emergency.

This is where camera's have their place--on the wing, on the fuselage, in the cabin--but out of the cockpit.

Fly safe.

 

[captdawg]

Give Away

MarineGrunt vbmenu_register("postmenu_400433", true);

Your giving yourself away ( 2 & 1 ) Besides, you didn't pay for the bullets

 

[MarineGrunt]

MarineGrunt vbmenu_register("postmenu_400433", true);

Your giving yourself away ( 2 & 1 ) Besides, you didn't pay for the bullets

Ha! They'd never figure my code out!
"So.... the code to the air-sheild is: 'one-two-three-four-five....."

 

[DoinTime]

A non-pilot suggested the following as an anti-hijacking concept. Initially I thought "no way" but there are elements which might work.

A guarded "Hijack" switch is installed into the jet. Upon attempted forced entry, a pilot would press and hold the switch for, say, 4 seconds. When activated, the system would do the following...

1) In all cases the autopilot would engage, and the jet would climb to, or descend to, a safe altitude determined by the FMS for the given topography, i.e. "Level Change" to 10,000' in a wings level manner. It would then continue straight and level until the system is deactivated or the jet runs out of fuel.

2) The autopilot would lock out, and could ONLY be unlocked with a 4 or 6 digit code entered into the FMC.

3) Jet could also use comm systems to alert authorities the system is engaged.

Accidental engagement would be embarrassing, but not dangerous. If the bad guys make it into the seats, they couldn't fly the airplane anywhere. No pilot these days would reveal the code given that death is imminent anyhow.

There are elements to this scheme that might work with transport aircraft w/FMS. The big objection of course is ANY system which potentially could "take control" of the aircraft.

Thoughts?

The autoflight/FMS system would have to be rewired to the DC power system as deselecting the ships AC power would render all of those systems inoperative. Handflying a dark airplane would not that big of a deal in day VFR conditions.

 

[DoinTime]

Ha! They'd never figure my code out!
"So.... the code to the air-sheild is: 'one-two-three-four-five....."

Thats the kind of code an idiot puts on their luggage.

 

[Swede]

The autoflight/FMS system would have to be rewired to the DC power system as deselecting the ships AC power would render all of those systems inoperative. Handflying a dark airplane would not that big of a deal in day VFR conditions.

True there's no doubt there'd be plenty of weird things to work around. CSD and Generator disconnects are electric... have the HIJACK panic button isolate these switches. Or have the system on its own isolated Battery + inverter, with perhaps 40 minutes of power. If we haven't solved it after 40 minutes, it's too late anyhow.

Really, the HIJACK button would be less of a switch and more of a CPU/computer assembly that would engage "Otto" in a hack-proof mode.

As for Autoland, well, you still need to tune the ILS, configure, slow, drop the gear, all currently human operations.

 

[FN FAL]

A non-pilot suggested the following as an anti-hijacking concept. Initially I thought "no way" but there are elements which might work.

A guarded "Hijack" switch is installed into the jet. Upon attempted forced entry, a pilot would press and hold the switch for, say, 4 seconds. When activated, the system would do the following...

1) In all cases the autopilot would engage, and the jet would climb to, or descend to, a safe altitude determined by the FMS for the given topography, i.e. "Level Change" to 10,000' in a wings level manner. It would then continue straight and level until the system is deactivated or the jet runs out of fuel.

2) The autopilot would lock out, and could ONLY be unlocked with a 4 or 6 digit code entered into the FMC.

3) Jet could also use comm systems to alert authorities the system is engaged.

Accidental engagement would be embarrassing, but not dangerous. If the bad guys make it into the seats, they couldn't fly the airplane anywhere. No pilot these days would reveal the code given that death is imminent anyhow.

There are elements to this scheme that might work with transport aircraft w/FMS. The big objection of course is ANY system which potentially could "take control" of the aircraft.

Thoughts?

Swede, you got the right idea, just not quite fully developed.

Not being facetious right now, but right after 9/11 there was a company that said they could install secure digital data link into airliners. What they were saying was that they could overtake the aircraft and save it from the ground...including landing it. No matter what the pilot incapcitation was.

Eventually, this capability is going to bring some changes to airline cockpits. Look at how much the military is planing on automating.

If you do a search on google for DARPA's contest for autonomous on road vehicles, you'll find that they didn't have any winners for the one million dollar prize recently. Next contest offers a two million dollar prize. The military has specified that they want a pretty good perctange of their ground vehicles autonomous by the year 2015.

That doesn't mean that they will be using remote controlled vehicles, that means that they want vehicles that can be sent out on a mission and complete it with no human intervention.

 

[s0ldier93]

HHHHmmmmm. . . . .

What if the pulling of this switch turned the aircraft to the nearest military airstrip instead. That would clean most civilian and otherwise innocent bystanders of the immediate danger right?

Also I'm not sure of the code part. That leaves the decision in human hands. Something along the lines of "I'll start killing passengers" comes to mind. I know there is the thought that we'll all die anyway, but who knows how one might react in the actual situation. Of coarse I say that with no better idea. Perhaps an unlock from outside of the aircraft. Maybe from the military base the aircraft is now circling. After the fighters catch up for insurance maybe?

 

[ThomasR]

7700

Hijack switch sets airplane to auto preset direct to military facility, all occupants are anesthetized through the environmental system, auto transmit 7700 for mil. escort. Sort out the details once on the ground. Got any complaints or law suites tell it to the hand. By order of H.W. Bush, Commander and Chief

 

[bart]

I never met an autopilot I could not out muscle...

 

[mar]

Finally! We agree.

Amazing.

And that's why my idea is the best. I will never understand why it's continually ignored.

 

[Swede]

Mar, I think it's because the cost and time to structurally modify a jet (separate pressure entry door for C/P only), is extremely high. And how are we supposed to take a whiz? Add a lav to the C/P? If we block off the forward lav, it'll also block many galleys, and pax up front would in many cases have no lav. I think if the jet was designed from scratch, your idea is totally practical. To retrofit existing jets, that's another issue.

 

[ShyFlyGuy]

I don't know why my idea hasn't taken off yet:

I think the cockpit should be sealed off from the main cabin. Completely. On the ground you enter through a separate door. You use a separate lav and a separate galley. There is no access to the main cabin.

Of course this may be a problem for checking the wings for snow and ice before takeoff or looking at the engines and wings during an emergency.

This is where camera's have their place--on the wing, on the fuselage, in the cabin--but out of the cockpit.

How about we just make the airplanes remote controlled and the pilots would fly in a Falcon 10 behind and above the aircraft, or make them towed in a glider behind the airplane... tied to the wingtips... that'll keep the pilots awake (wake-turbs and all). How about we have a supercomputer that flies the airplane from takeoff to landing and the pilot gets a code from dispatch if he needs to override it, and they'll have all kinds of security questions to ask, including anniversary date and wife's dress size. It'll improve safety, liability, responsibility, cost, and make all pilots better husbands. Hell, let's just quit carrying passengers.

It's very simple; secure doors, and a .45 for any special requests from the cabin.

 

[mar]

Fine by me...

Hell, let's just quit carrying passengers.

Great!

I don't understand why anybody would ever go into the self-loading-freight business anyway...

Pound for pound it's a looser. Insurance sucks. And all the peripheral crap that goes along with it sucks (pax lounges, in flight service, cabin announcements, lost baggage...).

Blah. And now security hassels.

By the way, my idea (though not explicitly stated) is intended for all newly manufactured jets. I didn't mean to suggest we should retrofit them.

All the old jets with cabin accessible cockpits can go into the true freight hauling business.

Vote for me in 2004.
Peace.

 

[pilot_guy]

anyone can be made to talk...

Code idea is nice, but a terrorist can make a pilot talk without having to kill passengers. Physical torture will unlock any secret. No one can hold out forever. He starts cutting on the guy, or breaking limbs, and you can't resist any more. I know some of you ex-mil out there have been through school and know about torture, but you also know that no one, not even the toughest spook, can hold out forever.

Just shoot the raghead and be done with it

 

[FracCapt]

Swede, you're heading for this post is correct.....STUPID anti-terrorist idea. Ok, so the FMS and A/P take over. Turn off the battery and generators. Batt and gen switches disabled when the switch is activated? The crash-axe isn't. In a fight between the crash-axe and an FMS, I'm betting on the axe. What happens then? Oh, and can you bypass all the circuit breakers so that they are disable when the switch is activated?

El Al has the right idea....an Uzi and a couple handguns in each cockpit. What more do you need?

 

[FN FAL]

Swede, you're heading for this post is correct.....STUPID anti-terrorist idea...
...El Al has the right idea....an Uzi and a couple handguns in each cockpit. What more do you need?

It's pretty simple...since the door is the only thing that resists bullets, just shoot on either the left side or the right side of the door...I guess it all depends on whether you lean to the left or the right...but any whoo, shoot on the left or right side of the door and then let the surviving member of the cockpit open the door for you. If that doesn't work...then it's time to start showing the remaining crewmember baby heads.

 

[Swede]

Swede, you're heading for this post is correct.....STUPID anti-terrorist idea.

I know it's stupid, but I thought it was imaginative. The idea isn't to PREVENT the airplane from crashing, the idea is to keep them from aiming the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed thing, and possibly allowing the crew to regain control. If Achmed and Mustapha took a crash axe to the panel, I doubt that'd help them point it at the Sears tower.

In this day of drones shooting missiles at Mullahs, the technology for an internal, hack-proof autopilot exists. It could be done. But I'll say it again, MY favorite idea for an anti-hijacking strategy is to arm the crew to the teeth.