Students and freshly minted commercial pilots II

[mcjohn]

Hi folks, my name is mcjohn and I've been sent from outer space to inform students and freshly minted commercial pilots how not to destroy the universe.

Do not go to Gulfstream Academy.
Do not go to Delta Connection Academy.
Do not go to ATP
Do not go to Regional Airline Academy
Do not go to Jet University
Do not go anywhere that has a glossy ad in AOPA's Flight Training magazine.

Why? It could destroy your life. Take it from me. I LIVE IN A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER!!
No really, I'm doing just fine but that's b/c I didn't go to those places above.
We all have to suffer through some depressing stuff to pay our dues but don't let yourself going into debt 80k to 100+k be part of it.
You may get into the cockpit of a jet faster by going to those places but let's consider the consequences of being a F/O for a regional when your 100k in debt:

1. Basically you'll being paying off a "mortgage" on your training debt that will equal what you have to pay in rent while your making less than 30k/year for your first couple of years as first officer. Practically impossible, and remember, airlines look at your credit history before they hire you.
2. As a result you will not be able to wine/dine women effectively, purchase a home and will remain in the renters trap for years.
3. Will probably be a little underqualified for your F/O position a get stuck in that right seat forever.
4. As a result of that you will not be able to log any PIC time (left seat time) that is crucial if you want to seek out other employment opportunities. So you may be stuck putting up with bad QOL (qual. of life) and bad pay with no other options on the table.
5. For Delta Conn. Academy (and similar), if you stick w/their program, you're already practicing bending over for management by accepting $10/hour to instruct for a school that cost you 100k to get through.

Aaaanyway, I came close to going to places like those above but made the decision to take that 100k and buy a house instead and here's the result:

1. Found an awesome woman and married her (they like dudes w/ houses). She splits the bills w/ me. Don't shack up or get married just to split the bills BUT do enjoy the financial freedom you gain after doing so.
2. Took my extra money and chipped away at ratings here and there and where ever I thought the deal was good and became a CFI.
3. Understand CFI is all you need to get started b/c the places that hire you will help you on the cost of CFII and MEI if you do a good job for them.
4. Have had the opportunity to fly many different aircraft which is important for building crucial pilot skills and upgrading well.
5. Gave me the time to realize that PIC time is crucial if you want to get into the unstable regional airline world......becoming a F/O at 500TT without hardly any PIC time is not a stable place anyone would really want to be if they only knew better.

The list could go on and on but I hope you get the picture.
Take this stuff to heart and it may help to slowly repair the airline industry. Maybe once again it can become a place where folks could actually enjoy having a career and pilots are compensated for and hired for there high level of experience and professionalism. Not their willingness to work for pennies and have a horrible quality of life.

Now take that 100k loan that you qualify for and do something responsible with it and help restore the natural balance of universe!!!!

 

[Joshrk22]

........

 

[mcjohn]

....................

 

[Gutenberg]

If you pay it, you most likely can afford it. What are the 4 forces of flight? The FAA, hopes, dreams, and money. Not breaking any ground here.

 

[mcjohn]

If you pay it, you most likely can afford it. Not breaking any ground here.

That depends.

 

[Way2Broke]

Trust me on this one.....they will give the money to anyone. I was 19 years old, and was awarded student loans in the ballpark of 100k. And trust me my family could not, and still can not afford this. So I live cheaply. It sucks to go to work just to pay for being able to be there. I went to one of the big crap hole schools, and sure I recieved excellent training, but I instructed at at "bob's school of aviation" and provided that same level of training for a fraction of the price to every student and I got paid double what most of the big schools paid. Why? Because I am a pilot and a professional! I was told by the big school, "you'll be working for a airline in no time." Well that was BS! Sept 11th, the economy, and mostly BAD MANAGEMENT, was and still is keeping alot of us from what we have worked so hard for.

........rant over

 

[anonimo]

I made a big mistake.

[FONT=&quot]McJohn,
People who don't know any better have got to have some sort of warning, it is good that you are saying something.
I have to admit that I was suckered into one of those big schools, and signed their training contract, which stated that I had something like "72 hours" to change my mind. Not too long after 72 hours I realized that I no longer liked what I was getting into, but it was too late.
During my time at this school I have seen way too many people who had no clue about the industry nor what they were getting into, sign this contract and thus forever change the greater portion of their financial future (for those who took out a loan as I have). Now I feel a subtle and consistent fury against these schools.
I know that I am the one who signed the contract, I made the choice, but it was a misinformed one:
I was told things like, "regional captains make 175 - 200K per year.....regional pilots often fly day trips, so they are home every night.....there is a massive hiring boom coming by 2006....train in our new aircraft (which are actually very old).....", etc. I had absolutely NO clue that regional F/O's make 17-22K their first year. I also later found out that the program I was involved with undermines the industry and, not too mention, pisses off a lot of pilots.

Shortly after signing up for this program, I started to feel a warning in my gut about it. However when I contemplated leaving, I realized that I was left with three options:
1. Walk away and forfeit all of the money to the school (as per the signed contract)
2. Initiate a lawsuit against the school (drama/time/money)
3. Complete the program

During my time at this school, I encountered a lot of situations which did not seem right considering how much money students were dropping for the program. Many were teenagers(and others) whom were blowing their money on the side, showing little if any financial awareness of the hole they were digging.
The school was even requiring prospective instructors (whom were not a part of the training program), to drop something like $5-6,000 to take a course that really had nothing to do with flight instruction, just to get a CFI job there.
At one point I had to convince the President/CEO of the school that it is unethical to advertise "Train in New Aircraft" on their brochures/website, when their fleet was old and facing innumerable maintenance issues. (the only thing new about the planes are the paint job and garmin 430s in most of the fleet).

This "big shiny ad" school, like all/most of them, were a lot of talk, with some merit of course (people getting hired), but largely distorted half-truths to convince misinformed/uninformed aspiring pilots to make what I now consider a big financial mistake(unless of course they can just fork out the money, but that does not account for what this does for others seeking professional jobs). This has been my experience with it. If anyone were to ask me about any of these schools, especially the one I attended, I would tell them to turn, and run and never look back, because its not worth it.
So good for you, McJohn, for deciding not to attend one of those schools.
As for me, I am now enjoying the life of making 22k this year, with massive loan payments due, $936.80/month for the next 20 years (do the math on that one)
I often find myself thinking of ways to raise awareness of the whole truth about this industry, and the whole truth of many of the flight schools/academies. One must be fully informed. That way, if they choose to pursue this as a profession, they know that they want it and the proper ways to get there.
I did have some good training, flew with good instructors, and made some good friends a long the way, but for the love of god, people have got to be better informed.
That is all I can say now, although I can say a lot more...

[/FONT]

 

[Kingair1181]

VERY WELL SAID! I wish I had known more about what exactly lay ahead of me when I went to a so called "Professional Flight Training School". Although I got some valuable experience from it and over 200 hrs of multi engine time I am still no further along then a buddy of mine who trained at the local FBO. The only difference is that I am in debt around $40,000 well my friend is in debt less then $20,00. We both have very similar jobs right now.

 

[Metro752]

[FONT=&quot] $936.80/month for the next 20 years (do the math on that one)
[/FONT]

nobody feels sorry for your stupid mistake, and the moron who cosigned for you

 

[PAPA FOX!]

Here's an idea

Why don't we all chip in and take out ads in AOPA and Flying magazine on the opposite pages as GIA, DCA, etc and for each bullet point they make about they're school, we counter it with the whole truth. This will hopefully turn the tide and will inform the next generation of pilots to look at all they're options.

 

[mcjohn]

Thanks for the bump fellas. Anonimo, I feel sorry for you. Everybody thinks they're going to make a ton of money working for regionals and living the dream so they justify signing those contracts. I friend of mine went down to Flight Safety and was told after training in their FO program he'd make 30+k in his first year with a partner airline. SCHOOLS LIE!!

PAPA FOX, I love your idea. We just need to convince the trust fund kids to give us that 100k flight training loan to afford to advertise in aviation mags!

 

[Say Again Over]

I LIVE IN A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER!!
by mcjohn

:beer:

 

[JSky26]

I'm sure all of these schools listed above have been guilty of violating FAR 141.23 - False Advertisement! I don't know how so many get away with it.

a) The holder of a pilot school certificate or a provisional pilot school certificate may not make any statement relating to its certification and ratings that is false or designed to mislead any person contemplating enrollment in that school.
(b) The holder of a pilot school certificate or a provisional pilot school certificate may not advertise that the school is certificated unless it clearly differentiates between courses that have been approved under part 141 of this chapter and those that have not been approved under part 141 of this chapter.
(c) The holder of a pilot school certificate or a provisional pilot school certificate must promptly remove:
(1) From vacated premises, all signs indicating that the school was certificated by the Administrator; or
(2) All indications (including signs), wherever located, that the school is certificated by the Administrator when its certificate has expired or has been surrendered, suspended, or revoked.

 

[mcjohn]

hmmm......class action suit anyone? Oh crap, I didn't attend one of those schools.

 

[Metro752]

Justify?

If someone did one tiny bit of research into aviation careers, they would know the flight attendant in back her first year would be making the same as you first year at a Regional.........

[FONT=&quot]$936.80/month for the next 20 years (do the math on that one)

$224,832.00 AND thats if the interest rate doesnt jump up a few more points. Was your contract +/-9% ?

[/FONT]

 

[mcjohn]

Metro752, know one cares if you don't feel sorry for anyone or think they made a stupid mistake. Hell, anonimo states very clearly "I made a big mistake." Many, many people have made this "stupid mistake" and it's very unfortunate. I can't stand to see these flight academies get away with lying to folks and profit on their dreams only to financially destroy a LARGE portion of their lives. We need to help inform, not smear their face in the "stupid mistake."

 

[anonimo]

Raise the Awareness

8.69% or so - estimated at 5.56% when I signed. Even though I didn't have problems with training/checkrides, I still had to pull out more money than advertised for increased hourly rates and for a cumulative 4 months of waiting around for an airworthy airplane (while paying rent/utilities). This has happened to so many of the students at this school that some max out their loan (of course some of these students are blowing their money on things they don't need), and are unable to finish the program. The school didn't really show much concern, it's purpose is to keep recruiting.

Metro, you have already given a justification: people do not do adequate research. Then add to the fact that many are blinded by an illusion, and then they get all pumped up and motivated by these salespeople to sign up. It is still happening all the time.

Mcjohn, I do like the idea, a 1-page ad in flying/aviation magazines - something to break up the illusions that these schools/academies portray. It is all about awareness.

Well at least my rage has paid off somewhat - some of my ventures into real estate with my wife (in central america) are yielding a passive monthly income that more or less covers my loan payments. I have made a big mistake, and I'm going to fix it.

 

[mcjohn]

You're involved in Central American Real Estate?! Now that's a nitch. Good luck to you. Are you flying? Any chance we can convince you to reveal the school's name for the cause?

 

[anonimo]

Yeah there is some good real estate down there - plus all the legalities are not as stringent as in the U.S, so it is a simpler process.
As for work, I am flying now.
I guess I could mention the school I attended - not to say I did not meet some good people there, and had some good training. I did keep up a positive attitude and worked hard. Still, I give my absolute supreme recommendation to anyone not to sign up for the complete program, even if you have the money to fork out. In fact, don't sign up for any of the training. Give your support to your local FBO/mom & pop operation if you can - well, that is what I think. I have observed that it doesn't really matter whether you go part 141 or 61. Just be focused, know what you want, have fun.

As for the school I attended, it was raa.

On a side note, JSKY26 mentioned earlier FAR 141.23 - false advertisement. I almost pulled that one out on the CEO when I was at raa because 141.23 was being violated, and I had/have the proof...for a while I was getting other students' consent to sign a letter to the CEO identifying the need for change at the academy, but I decided not to submit it, because I figured I would get screwed.

 

[JSky26]

Anonimo,

Seriously dude, you should have done it. I don't know why people bring up this reg more often...

Sorry on the luck man, but what comes around goes around though ...you'll get your time