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Student owes money

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sdflyer2

Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2002
Posts
8
Have a student that that is taking a checkride next week and he owes for previous lessons. I have asked that we "clear up" any outstanding balances before the ride and he has been slow to respond. Wanting to be proactive, do I:

1) Not endorse his logbook for the checkride if he does not pay.

2) Extend credit past the checkride and hope he pays.

3) Take him out back and best the sheese out of him.

Yeah, I know I should not have extended the credit in the first place....lesson learned.

Thanks for the input.
 
Agree. That endorsement is the only leverage you have. I would not sign it. I think it is disrespectful not to pay you. It is like he is saying he does not value your time.


It is different if he comes to you and says, "hey man, I am having a bad week...can I pay you next week?" but to keep flying and not paying????? Plus, I bet he won't hesitate to pay the examiner.

Don't sign it unless you are willing to walk away from that money you worked so hard for.
 
You are under no obligation to endorse his logbook. You may not want to do any further training (for free!) until he brings his account out of arrears. Think a gas station would allow him to buy more gas if he didn't pay for the last tank?

He can 1: Stiff you and pay more for another flight instructor to do the endorsement to which you haul him off to small claims court after following the due process, 2: Get hit by a bus and you are outta luck, 3: Pay you.

Sometimes the students run out of dough. I've got one now that I'm extending credit to until he finishes the ride (Monday). It's a risk, but he's worth it.

Another student wrote a bad check and is making excuses instead of paying it. He's going to find out that leaving the state only makes bouncing the check worse; it doesn't forgive the offense.

Another instance, a long time ago, the fellow thought he wasn't getting the best value and we parted ways. He then wanted to come back 3 years later for an even cheaper price. He thinks I'm being mean to him by saying and meaning "no."

The other 99.99% sometimes make a mistake and bounce a check, forget their wallet, or something. They are greatly embarrassed, quite apologetic, and go out of their way to make good. Why would I want to sacrifice time I could be spending with these types to waste time on the other .01%?

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein
 
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If flight instructors *ever* want to be treated like professionals, they need to behave that way.

Do not provide further flight instruction until he has paid you. Simply call him and tell him that in order for him to take his checkride, he has to pay all previous debt and from now on needs to clear his balance after each lesson.

Do not sign his logbook until the night prior to the checkride or he might stiff you for the last lesson or two.

Everyone has to pay their bills. You can't tell your landlord that your student didnt pay so don't evict me. You can't tell your family you can't feed them because your student didn't pay you.

So get him to cough it up, or stop dealing with him.

How much does he owe? (Not that it matters. I would hold up the checkride for even 5 bux if he is just dragging his feet).
 
Hmmm.....I see a trend in these responses....and...well, I agree with them, for the most part...but I think you should not excercise ONLY option #1....but you should excercise option #1 and #3 at the same time! :D
 
I wouldn't endorse him...

Then he's stuck with only a few options
1. Pay - seems the cheapest/easiest for him and you
2. Pay a different instructor to give him the 3 hours of dual before he'll get signed off.
3. Wait to pay you and then you find out it's been less than 3 hours in 60 days so you've got to do more dual (more cash for you).

If he pays someone else, you take him to Judge Judy...

Good Luck

-mini
 
what?!?!

come on!!!! beat him up a little!!! this is america, for cripe's sake!


seriously, i do have a question for all of you CFI's in this thread - i will very soon start my flight training, and this will be right after i graduate from college. i have 6 mos. at least, unless i get them deferred longer, to start paying back my student loans, so yay for that, and as of right now, i'm more than 1/3 done paying off my car loan. now, here's my question: would you, if you were me, take out another loan (if the banks will let me) to cover the cost of flight training (say....$40,000 to cover myself) OR would you try and find a job and use that money to pay for training? pros and cons:

pros to taking out a loan: i definitely have the money, so i won't have my CFI after me with a gun and the money i would make at my job could help to pay back my 3 loans, which i'm sure would be easier than going paycheck to paycheck to pay for my training.

cons for taking out a loan: i am loaned out already. my parents are as well. they think that i will be hard-pressed to find a bank that would allow me to borrow, so that's iffy. also, i wonder what the monthly payment on that would be. my car loan is approx. $240 a month, so that hurts big time. but if i don't take out a loan, would living paycheck to paycheck be enough to cover both training AND my loan costs?

i'm in a bind here. also, do you think $40,000 will cover PPL, instrument, CFI, Multi, and maybe MEI? i'd also like to get my CFI-I, but i figure by that point i will be getting paid as a CFI as well as having another job, so i won't need to depend on my loan to pay for it there. what do you all think? sorry this is so longwinded, and sdflyer, sorry for pirating your thread :o. you seemed to have a pretty universal answer.... well, except for mine, of course :D.
 
I don't know what your income is now, but I would suggest getting a job and pay for it with that. You will not likely earn enough to pay for all of it, but, if your debt load is manageable, you may, if you have a job, be able to get a loan (or loans) for the balance of your certificates.

I suggest you sell your car, buy a beater. I sold most of my guns and a motorcycle to pay for my training while working part time to full time. I also took out sizable loans. I also married a good woman willing to help me by working full time (covering rent and food) while I finished certificates.

Cost obviously depends on where you are doing your training. You might be able to work out a deal with an FBO/flight school to wash planes to defer the cost of equipment.

The easiest way to get money for education is by joining the military (VA benefits)-but make sure you get the job in the military that you want. Get it in writing.

Any way you do it, it's not going to be easy. It wasn't for most of us. Godspeed cforst.
 
cforst513 said:
i'm in a bind here. also, do you think $40,000 will cover PPL, instrument, CFI, Multi, and maybe MEI?
Click to expand...
Yes if you suck up, buckle down, and attend someplace like AllATPS (i.e. no life, avoid the g.f./b.f. 'til done, cancel cable, downgrade to DSL/Cable instead of a T1). You won't have the most complete flight training available, but you will have it DONE. Then go be a CFI with them for a year or so. You'll have a ton of multi time, lots of contacts, and plenty of references that'll walk your resume in to wherever. Then go work for an airline. The sooner you get the seniority number the better your life will be, even at your second or third airline.

If you go the FBO route, $40K may not cover it.

Take a job: Be too tired and too fatigued to use money earned on flight training. Then the car breaks down. Then life kicks in, welcome to the rat race, and you find your goal slipping through your fingers.

Take the loan: UVSC has student loans available, so does Sallie and Nellie Mae. If your credit is good, Sallie and Nellie are going to be your best friends. If you pay late or not at all, bad news. Student loans you can defer 'til you have income. Sallie and Nellie want your first born and have no humor about furloughs, no jobs, and so on.

Either way, get the car paid off and start saving that much each month for the next car.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein
 
If your student owes you money, you can refrain from recommending that student for the practical test. However, you do not have the option of failing to endorse the student's log or training record for the instruction you have provided. That is a requirement established by 14 CFR 61.189(a):

§ 61.189 Flight instructor records.
(a) A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.
Click to expand...
You are not under any obligation to ever recommend a student for a practical test, but you must always provide an endorsement for training received. Note that the regulation does not address financial arrangement or gain. This means for you that it doesn't matter what the student pays you; you give the instruction, you endorse the students logbook or training record for the instruction you have provided, or you may face enforcement action. The FAA couldn't care less if you get paid.

You always have the option of refusing to recommend for the practical test until you receive payment. If it were me and I felt strongly on the topic, I might contact the examiner involved and notify the examiner that you have not received payment, should the student attempt to proceed with the practical test using the services of a different instructor. An ethical examiner should be willing to work with you on that matter and refuse to conduct the test until you are payed. That is, of course, at the discretion of the examiner.

The fact that you haven't been paid suggests that you are providing independent instruction. While independent instruction is perfectly legitimate, remember that if you're instructing through a school or through a FBO's offering, you have some protection in that the student won't be allowed to rent unless the bill is paid. Often that means payment up front, often in a block amount. This is a benifit to you.
 
here is a *different* opinion. Sure, all the "Guido's" on this board are just jumping at the chance to whuppass, and with little or no information. You have not given enough information to make a *sober* decision.

Why is he behind? What was the exchange at the first time he did not pay for the lesson? Did you let it go in the beginning? Did you lead him to believe you might help him out a bit in these final days? Maybe you didn't intend for that to happen, but did you consider the implication? Getting the final prep hours and completing the checkride can be very cost-effective. You know that stretching it out ultimately costs more.

I am in agreement with everyone about not recommending, if he has lied or implied that he would pay before checkride, but if that has not been made clear....

....and as Avbug points out, you *must* sign his logbook for training recieved.

...and you should recommend him, if that might have been implied by your verbal agreement to provide training for payment at a later date.
But get that agreement in writing before the recommendation.
 
Give me 10 percent of what he owes you and I,ll go and break his F()CKING LEGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Then I'll go to his house and drown his goldfish........
 
any how just kidding .....like some of them said don't endorse his log book that will hurt more then any a$$ kicking.......... Some people are such scumbags.all that hard work you put in and they can,t even repay you
 
avbug said:
If your student owes you money, you can refrain from recommending that student for the practical test. However, you do not have the option of failing to endorse the student's log or training record for the instruction you have provided....
Click to expand...

Pretty sure that's what everyone meant by not "endorsing" his book...

...at least me...

61.103
To be eligible for a private pilot certificate, a person must:

(f) Receive flight training and a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor who:

(2) Certified that the person is prepared for the required practical test.

like I said...at least that's where I was going...just don't endorse him for the Check ride...

-mini
 
do you think $40,000 will cover PPL, instrument, CFI, Multi, and maybe MEI?
Click to expand...

Don't forget that you have to get a commercial license also...in order to get the CFI.
 
Don't put your name on anything unless he pays
 
Remember the golden rule.....................


NO GOOD DEED GOES UNPUNISHED!

Remember that and you will never get f*cked in business!

I gaurentee this guy screws you if you sign the logbook.
 
Instructor leverage

I agree with everyone who recommended against signing off your student. Absent sending the boys after him, you really have no other leverage to make him pay.

And, once he pays and you finish him, let him go. Your time is too valuable to waste on him if he won't pay. Let him find another instructor. I agree with all points above that instructors need to act professional and expect professional treatment from their clients.
 
Followup to the situation:

At the beginning of our last flight before the checkride, I informed my student that he needed to clear his outstanding balance before we flew. He replied. " I didn't bring my checkbook". I asked, "did you bring your flightbag? How about your headset? Then if you knew you were going to fly, why didn't you bring your checkbook? I told him that not only would we not fly, I would not endorse his logbook for the checkride.

At that point it, he told me that driving home would take too much time. I told him that rescheduling his checkride would take even longer and cost more.
I said...go to the ATM, get the cash and by the way, I'm billing you for my time.

He paid, crisp twenties......

Thanks to everyone for the advice..
 
Glad it worked out.

Your invoice is in the mail, payment due within 30 days.
(You didn't think all this advice was FREE did you?)

sdflyer2 said:
Followup to the situation:

At the beginning of our last flight before the checkride, I informed my student that he needed to clear his outstanding balance before we flew. He replied. " I didn't bring my checkbook". I asked, "did you bring your flightbag? How about your headset? Then if you knew you were going to fly, why didn't you bring your checkbook? I told him that not only would we not fly, I would not endorse his logbook for the checkride.

At that point it, he told me that driving home would take too much time. I told him that rescheduling his checkride would take even longer and cost more.
I said...go to the ATM, get the cash and by the way, I'm billing you for my time.

He paid, crisp twenties......

Thanks to everyone for the advice..
Click to expand...
 

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