Student Endoresement: High Perf / Complex

[User546]

I have a student who has received about 10 hours dual so far, with all the training in a Cessna 172.

He went out last week and bought a Piper Dakota as a personal aircraft. For you that aren't familiar with the Dakota's, it has a 235 HP engine, fixed-gear, with constant speed prop.

So now I will be doing all the rest of his primary training in this Dakota.

My question is, when do I need to give him his complex and high performance endoresement to fly this airplane? Should I do it as soon as possible (as soon as proper ground and flight criteria is met) or is it not important for him to have until he's ready to act as PIC in the aircraft (first solo, etc.)?

Never ran into a situation like this before, and I want to make sure I do it right.

Thanks.

 

[vclean]

He would need the proper endorsements before he acts as PIC (solo).

 

[Vik]

10hrs of dual with you? or just 10hrs dual total, as in he's not even a private pilot yet?

If he's already a private pilot, he needs to log PIC while flying the plane, and can't until you endorse him.

Either way -- your signature on that endorsement says, "Dear FAA, I certify that if this guy kills himself in this plane, that you will hunt down my ass and harass me for the rest of my life."

Don't sign it until you feel that he's ready to fly it as PIC. I can't even begin to imagine how much trouble I would have gotten myself into flying a 235HP airplane with only 10hrs under my belt.

Whatever you do, don't risk your ticket.

I have a student who has received about 10 hours dual so far, with all the training in a Cessna 172.

He went out last week and bought a Piper Dakota as a personal aircraft. For you that aren't familiar with the Dakota's, it has a 235 HP engine, fixed-gear, with constant speed prop.

So now I will be doing all the rest of his primary training in this Dakota.

My question is, when do I need to give him his complex and high performance endoresement to fly this airplane? Should I do it as soon as possible (as soon as proper ground and flight criteria is met) or is it not important for him to have until he's ready to act as PIC in the aircraft (first solo, etc.)?

Never ran into a situation like this before, and I want to make sure I do it right.

Thanks.

 

[Vik]

Nevermind, missed your keyword, "primary" .. so he's only had 10hrs total and he's got a 235HP plane .. yikes.

 

[minitour]

He would only need high performance though correct? Since it doesn't have retractable landing gear?

I would assume being HP it has Cowl Flaps? But it's still missing the gear, so does it qualify as complex?

-mini

 

[bigD]

I would assume being HP it has Cowl Flaps? But it's still missing the gear, so does it qualify as complex?

-mini

Nope - to be complex it needs "all of the above". So it's only HP.

 

[minitour]

woohoo...that means I passed ground school yay!

-mini

 

[vclean]

Many pilots earn their private in high performance and/or complex airplanes. 235HP means nothing. Pilots kill themselves in everything from an ultralight and up. Quality of instruction and maturity and judgement of the student/pilot determine the risks they present themselves.

If you feel confident your student understands the aircraft and demonstrates the skills required to safely fly the aircraft, then endorse his logbook and student pilot certificate (medical) before he solos.

Giving an endorsement for HP, complex, tailwheel or anything else doesn't bring the FAA on you any faster than a student you signoff on a 172, or a bfr.

Document your training and cover the items on the PTS. You are not forever responsible for someone's carelessness or lack of judgement.

 

[flyer172r]

woohoo...that means I passed ground school yay!

-mini

That's always a good thing to realize

Training in a HP plane is very doable, chances are it'll take longer before he's really ready for solo or his checkride.

 

[minitour]

That's always a good thing to realize

yeah...I thought I did but I was worried with talk of a complex endorsement in the thread...but it's all good...

-mini

 

[JAFI]

Vic said: "Either way -- your signature on that endorsement says, "Dear FAA, I certify that if this guy kills himself in this plane, that you will hunt down my ass and harass me for the rest of my life."

We'll only Hunt You Vic, Only You....

--Cowl Flaps doesnt mean HP-- it means the aircraft has Cowl Flaps--


--Find the correct endorcement in your AC 61-65D, as a CFI you should have a copy, in not there are many sites you can sown load it..

JAFI

 

[minitour]

--Cowl Flaps doesnt mean HP-- it means the aircraft has Cowl Flaps--

JAFI

This I know, but I would assume a bigger, more powerful engine would almost "require" them to keep the temperature from going to extremes...


like I said..."I would assume being HP it has Cowl Flaps?"but that was just a guess

-mini

 

[roundout]

you don't have to give a primary student an endorsement to solo a high performance airplane because the make & model is covered in the required solo endorsements. you will have to give him the high performance endorsement AFTER he takes the private checkride.

 

[User546]

I agree that 235 HP airplane is a lot of airplane for a 10 hour student, and I was a little suprised when he called to tell me he bought it. But on the flip side also, since he's so low time, it might be easier for him to transition and "learn" the airplane, rather then having 30 or 40 hours in a C172, and then having to deal with how to manage all this extra horsepower and prop lever. In other words, learning to fly this airplane this early on in his training (when frankly he's still green anyways) he won't know much difference between it and a typical trainer.

Agreed it will take him a bit more time to probably solo, but he's not getting the sign-off until he's 110% ready anyways, with or without a HP airplane.

And I thought with the airplane having a variable pitch prop that it made it complex?? I could look it up right now, but I'm away on a trip and can't reference any of my books.

 

[minitour]

...But on the flip side also, since he's so low time, it might be easier for him to transition and "learn" the airplane, rather then having 30 or 40 hours in a C172, and then having to deal with how to manage all this extra horsepower and prop lever....

I kind of agree...

looking back, I would have just taken out a loan and done my private in a Bonanza...gotten used to the power and the prop, gear, etc, etc...

Would it have taken longer? Yeah, probably, but when I get to move into bigger stuff, I might not have to work as hard to get ahead and stay ahead of the plane...but the 152s can be fun too...

I guess the other side of that is there's always something bigger/faster to transition into so it doesn't really matter...

-mini

 

[wmuflyguy]

And I thought with the airplane having a variable pitch prop that it made it complex?? I could look it up right now, but I'm away on a trip and can't reference any of my books.

FAR 61.31

e) Additional training required for operating complex airplanes.
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (e)(2) of this section, no person
may act as pilot in command of a complex airplane (an airplane that has
a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller;
or, in the case of a seaplane, flaps and a controllable pitch
propeller), unless the person has--

 

[User546]

Danka FlyGuy... and for everyone else for answering my questions!

That's why I love this board so much! Well, that and all the hot chick's you guys have in your avatars...

 

[JRSLim]

I
And I thought with the airplane having a variable pitch prop that it made it complex?? I could look it up right now, but I'm away on a trip and can't reference any of my books.

here 'tis: 61.31
e) Additional training required for operating complex airplanes. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a complex airplane (an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller ....

If ya have the net, you can look it up:
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?&c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title14/14tab_02.tpl


We train PP students in HP aircraft all the time - the 210 HP T-41s. Now granted, we are at 6,000 MSL, so that cuts down the bite quite a bit, but it seems having some extra power (within limits) is more of a help than a hinderance in basic training.

Cheers!

 

[JRSLim]

That's why I love this board so much! Well, that and all the hot chick's you guys have in your avatars...

You should talk... so uhh, ya go her number?

 

[wheelsup]

Try training primary students (i.e. totally green) in 300 HP bonanzas. It's actually not that bad once they get used to it. A little nerve racking for me though on first solo, got the binoc's in the tower to make sure their gear is down each time...

~wheelsup