Strike Vote Called For at NetJets

[Viffer]

OK, so what are you then? A PFTer? Does Daddy Warbucks buy you a new Jag? Have you ever even worked a day in your life? Do you have any clue at all what you're talking about in your useless dribble?.

Thanks, Capn. That was one of the best things I've read all day!

 

[FamilyGuy]

One other point is that as soon as labor and management go down the path of becoming enemies, the entire company is destined to collapse. Look at every major airline to see it happening. It appears that with NJ things have gone past the point where all sides will ever be happy again. I hope I'm wrong, but the future of NJ looks bleak.

Great point Viffer. This is exactly what most of the people at Bridgeway are concerned about - that things have deteriorated so far that that we will never be able to go back to the great atmosphere that we used to have.

 

[CapnVegetto]

Berkshire isnt raking in millions off of pilots' sweat....NetJets is a break-even or marginally profitable business. BRK gets the bulk of its profits from the insurance business. Read the annual reports and you'll see that its true...NetJets' union was formed long before Mr. Santulli bought the company and invented the fractional market. Was it in response to poor management? Probably. Is a union needed to deal with Mr. Santulli now? I doubt it. NJI, NJE, and EJM pilots dont think so....a large majority of my fellow Bridgeway employees dont think so either.

The union was formed because pay/benefits/QOL has steadily declined over the years as the company has grown and revenue has gotten to be more. Please don't get me wrong.....for the most part, I'm NOT pro union. My brief union experience was NOT a good one. I just simply don't believe them. Period. I know what they charge, and I know how much those jets cost per hour to operate, (and it's even less than I know b/c of pilot salaries there). Over the last few years, NJA pilots have watched their fly from home vanish, their pay vanish, their work rules get worse, their days get longer. I'm sure they got to the point to where enough was enough.




I agree with your comments on Southwest's employee friendly outlook and its positive effect on company performance. I think their model should be copied by every company in the US, whether they are aviation related or not. Mr. Santulli has long advocated in person that you should take care of employees. I personally havent worked for another company that cared more for its people.

SWA's recent profitability though has been primarily due to its fuel hedges and their foresight to lock in fuel at $28-$35 a barrel. This isnt meant to take anything away from the positive impact of having good labor-management relations, just to point out that even good companies with great labor relations can lose money in rough economic environments.

As for your comments on Buffett, I think it is clear that you are judging the man simply by the size of his wallet and not by his actions. Buffett is a widely acknowledged DEMOCRAT, a staunch critic of excessive management pay (his salary is $100,000) and stock options, and he has repeatedly called for harsh penalties for the managers that have lined their pockets with company profits. If you watched his interview on CNBC about 2 weeks ago you would have seen him state very simply that the rich are currently winning in the United States and the Congress and President should raise taxes and help to redistribute the wealth. He also got in trouble in California for suggesting that they raise property taxes when he pointed out that he pays more property taxes for his house in Omaha than he does on an estate in California....

OK, then riddle me this.....if NJA had the same fuel hedges, would they be passing that extra profit on to the employees, or keeping it themselves? You say that NJA 'cares' for its employees? They why is fly from home gone? Why has pay decreased? Why have work rules gotten worse? Why does Mr. Sanatulli talk about taking care of his people, yet doesn't DO it? Give me five minutes, and I'll advocate in person anything you want! But until I DO something about it, it doesn't matter does it?

Oh yeah, and state to me right now with 'good company' with 'good labor relations' in aviation is LOSING money right now.

So Mr. Buffet is a 'staunch critic of excessive management pay'? I'm sure he criticizes most loudly while hopping on his private jet heading to one of his two homes. Buddy, I may not be a quantum physicist, but I can sure as hell tell you that he isn't paying the bills from all that stuff on a $100,000 a year salary. To borrow an old cliche', actions speak louder than words.

Since you have such good sources, maybe you can do this: post how much each management member of NJA makes, and I'm not talking just salary. I mean stock options, bonuses, executive perks, usage of company equipment, expense accounts. Basically, all that they get that pilots don't.

 

[CapnVegetto]

I agree with you on this point as well Capn. I am disgusted that some management types get greedy and ask for concessions while they give themselves bonuses or pass special provisions that protect their pensions during a bankruptcy. This behavior is totally unacceptable and I was very pleased when the American and Delta executives were kicked out for these actions. I've always believed that pain and gain should be shared.

Amen Amigo.

I also think your post points out the problem with contracts - they lock groups into terms with no flexibility either way when the economic picture changes. If the company is doing poorly it is still forced to pay wages that it cant afford or are dramatically above market conditions (example - legacy carriers over the last 4 years) and when the company is doing well the workers are locked into terms below the levels they could get if they were free to move around. Yes, managers are loath to give anything beyond contractual provisions during the good times just as unions dont want to give anything back during the bad times (again look at legacy unions over the last four years....how long did it take Delta pilots to face up to the situation their company is in? Northwest's pilots union recently stated that the other unions should face economic reality only to be told to mind their business by other union leaders). In the end it is a terribly rigid model that doesnt adapt to rapidly changing market conditions.

You're right here. Exactly why I'm not pro union. I will agree, sometimes cuts are needed. But in this example, we're back to the same ol' thing. Management still paying themselves and their cronies millions, and bugging labor for even MORE cuts instead of developing a better business plan and finding other ways to save.

That's why I prefer our current performance based system....it recognizes and rewards the people that contribute more and work harder and is adjustable up or down each year depending on that years economic conditions.

Makes sense to me. However the big problem is the union doesn't believe management. They believe that management is corrupt. How can the other companies be making money while NJA isn't? See my previous posts about operating costs.

Does it provide that 'guaranteed increase' each year as a contract? No, but I've found that the vast majority of people who just want to go to work and do their jobs each day have nothing to fear. The only ones that should be concerned by that type of system are the people that want to slide by and do nothing while everyone else picks up their slack.

That's how a lot of people are. If that's what your labor wants, then you're gonna have to deal with it. People have mortgages, college funds, car payments......they have to know what's coming. There are bad apples, yes, as always. But your company is going to run better and more profitably with happy labor. Period. I go back to what I said earlier.....you can't run a service business with pi$$ed off labor. Look at every single airline out there. The ones with happy labor and good business plans are the ones making money.

One last observation - if you dont work for NJA then how can you state that NJ management is spewing out hypocritical bull$hit? Are you in on the negotiations or are you relying on the information people post on bulletin boards?

Because I can READ. And I'm not talking about just message boards. I'm talking news reports, etc. Not to mention all the people that work there that I know.

5 characters.

 

[FamilyGuy]

The union was formed because pay/benefits/QOL has steadily declined over the years as the company has grown and revenue has gotten to be more. Please don't get me wrong.....for the most part, I'm NOT pro union. My brief union experience was NOT a good one. I just simply don't believe them. Period. I know what they charge, and I know how much those jets cost per hour to operate, (and it's even less than I know b/c of pilot salaries there). Over the last few years, NJA pilots have watched their fly from home vanish, their pay vanish, their work rules get worse, their days get longer. I'm sure they got to the point to where enough was enough.

WRONG. The union has been in place at Executive Jet/NetJets for over 30 years....long before Mr. Santulli came into the picture. Ask some of your NJ pilot friends for confirmation if you like. And again, if you arent part of NetJets then how do you know what's happened internally at NetJets?

OK, then riddle me this.....if NJA had the same fuel hedges, would they be passing that extra profit on to the employees, or keeping it themselves?

NetJets doesnt make money on fuel. We charge our owners our actual cost of fuel so any savings on fuel go to the owners - not management, not employees.

You say that NJA 'cares' for its employees? They why is fly from home gone? Why has pay decreased? Why have work rules gotten worse? Why does Mr. Sanatulli talk about taking care of his people, yet doesn't DO it? Give me five minutes, and I'll advocate in person anything you want! But until I DO something about it, it doesn't matter does it?

You're not part of NetJets but you know all the details of our problems.... Again, are you in on the negotiations or are you relying on the information people post on bulletin boards?

Oh yeah, and state to me right now with 'good company' with 'good labor relations' in aviation is LOSING money right now.

Okay....Continental airlines. How about this one - what good (or bad) aviation company with bad labor relations is making money right now? How about Fedex and UPS?

So Mr. Buffet is a 'staunch critic of excessive management pay'? I'm sure he criticizes most loudly while hopping on his private jet heading to one of his two homes. Buddy, I may not be a quantum physicist, but I can sure as hell tell you that he isn't paying the bills from all that stuff on a $100,000 a year salary. To borrow an old cliche', actions speak louder than words.

Of course he isnt paying the bills on his salary....he's made his money by wisely investing his money over 40 years in carefully chosen companies....something you too can do if you read The Millionaire Next Door and follow its lessons. Or should I assume from the suggestion in your message that Buffett should subsidize you or me simply because he's smart and disciplined? News flash for you - he already does through higher taxes.

Since you have such good sources, maybe you can do this: post how much each management member of NJA makes, and I'm not talking just salary. I mean stock options, bonuses, executive perks, usage of company equipment, expense accounts. Basically, all that they get that pilots don't.

I wish I could, but I dont know what the managers of NJA make, nor do I care. What I care about is making enough money to feed my family and pay my mortgage, which I can currently do.

However, thanks to the power of the internet, I can post how much the leaders of the Teamsters make:

http://www.tdu.org/HoffaWatch/Club2004/club2004.html

Looks to me like 30+ years of Teamsters representation at NetJets has helped line the pockets of the people on this list, but they havent helped our pilots. Tell me again why I should join a union?

 

[CapnVegetto]

WRONG. The union has been in place at Executive Jet/NetJets for over 30 years....long before Mr. Santulli came into the picture. Ask some of your NJ pilot friends for confirmation if you like. And again, if you arent part of NetJets then how do you know what's happened internally at NetJets?

OK, I might've been wrong on this one. I'll admit when I'm wrong. But.....you can't argue that there had to be a reason it was formed. Now, it is needed.

NetJets doesnt make money on fuel. We charge our owners our actual cost of fuel so any savings on fuel go to the owners - not management, not employees.

I know that. I was asking a question to get an idea of management's intentions. You didn't answer it.

You're not part of NetJets but you know all the details of our problems.... Again, are you in on the negotiations or are you relying on the information people post on bulletin boards?

See my previous post

Okay....Continental airlines. How about this one - what good (or bad) aviation company with bad labor relations is making money right now? How about Fedex and UPS?

Continental isn't making money. They're still losing. Granted, they're losing less than everyone else, but they're still losing. And don't forget the fact that they probably have the BEST labor relations of all the Legacy carriers. FedEx and UPS have bad labor relations? News to me. How many FedEx and UPS pilots are on TV calling their management scumbags. Hell, how many FedEx and UPS pilots bitch about bad life on this forum?

Of course he isnt paying the bills on his salary....he's made his money by wisely investing his money over 40 years in carefully chosen companies....something you too can do if you read The Millionaire Next Door and follow its lessons. Or should I assume from the suggestion in your message that Buffett should subsidize you or me simply because he's smart and disciplined? News flash for you - he already does through higher taxes.

I wish I could, but I dont know what the managers of NJA make, nor do I care. What I care about is making enough money to feed my family and pay my mortgage, which I can currently do.

However, thanks to the power of the internet, I can post how much the leaders of the Teamsters make:

http://www.tdu.org/HoffaWatch/Club2004/club2004.html

Looks to me like 30+ years of Teamsters representation at NetJets has helped line the pockets of the people on this list, but they havent helped our pilots. Tell me again why I should join a union?

I never said you should, I never said I was pro-union. I'm anti-hypocritical management, and that INCLUDES management of unions. Show me that the pilots at NJA aren't getting screwed, and I'll shut up. But until you do so, it's not gonna happen.

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[FamilyGuy]

Amen Amigo.

You're right here. Exactly why I'm not pro union. I will agree, sometimes cuts are needed. But in this example, we're back to the same ol' thing. Management still paying themselves and their cronies millions, and bugging labor for even MORE cuts instead of developing a better business plan and finding other ways to save.

We both agree on this Capn. It is inexcusable for management to make millions while asking workers for concessions. The pain should be shared.

Makes sense to me. However the big problem is the union doesn't believe management. They believe that management is corrupt. How can the other companies be making money while NJA isn't? See my previous posts about operating costs.

The lack of trust in both groups IMO is the biggest problem to getting a deal done and getting this behind us. As for which companies make money, our mgmt has already stated internally and publicly in the BRK annual report that the US operation makes money and we lose money in Europe. Mr. Santulli and the managers have stated that the Pilots deserve a raise and will get one...the debate is over the size of the raise.

After being in this industry and others for so long I've grown tired of this bickering....the company needs to take care of its people and give them a fair increase, and the union needs to realize they cant take the whole pie....other employees need to feed their families as well and Mr. Santulli and Berkshire need to be rewarded for their leadership and capital. We also need to set aside money to continue to grow the business. This all looks really silly when you realize how lucky we are....most companies in aviation arent making money - they are cutting jobs.

That's how a lot of people are. If that's what your labor wants, then you're gonna have to deal with it. People have mortgages, college funds, car payments......they have to know what's coming. There are bad apples, yes, as always. But your company is going to run better and more profitably with happy labor. Period. I go back to what I said earlier.....you can't run a service business with pi$$ed off labor. Look at every single airline out there. The ones with happy labor and good business plans are the ones making money.

Agreed.

Because I can READ. And I'm not talking about just message boards. I'm talking news reports, etc. Not to mention all the people that work there that I know.

Sounds like we rely on the same sources for information.

 

[El Chupacabra]

I wonder why management made a REVISED offer brfore facing the NMB. Could it be they knew the last offer showed bad faith?

 

[FAcFriend]

El,

Could it be they did not want to go into deep freeze any more than you do?

I think the new offer is about clarification - contract to offer.
Not TA to offer. The TA is dead. You guys killed it. Not sure why you are comparing the TA to anything anymore.

Look at the contract- look at the offer. Your benefits = about 15k per person. Was the financial incentive more than 15k per person with the new cafeteria proposal?

Many were having a hard time understanding - so I think the new proposal goes back to the current contract (not dead TA) and redefines things. Havent seen it. I hope the MEC relseases it to all.

 

[El Chupacabra]

I understood it the first time. No raise at all.

If they want people who would accept this they should have included a math test in the interview and only hire folks who cannot count.

There will not be less money in what we agree to now then there was in the failed TA. There will be MORE. Or there will be no agreement.


If (in the unlikely event) the present MEC were to present and try to sell a TA that has less money in it then the TA we voted down with an 82% vote ... they will be hung by their cajones from the highest rafters in Columbus.

Ooops... let me say that is a figure of speech... for those who don't recognize them when ythey see them.