STFD netjets!!

[h25b]

You are a true idiot if you believe pilots are joining Flexjet and CS because of the lack of a union at either company. C'mon - that's ridiculous. Another example of great SPIN. NJA is becoming far less appealing because of its acrimonious work environment and its lower pay. It has a bad reputation now among prospective pilots - I know because I have been told that by recent Flexjet newhires. CS Bravo Captains are paid more than NJA Citation X or G200 Captains.

The "Truth" is that NJA can't admit the fact that the operation continues to sink as some of its best employees and many owners walk out the door... It is becoming a worse place to work by the day. Clearly a lot of the pilots have remained due to the promise of potential retro pay. But, as things continue to get worse, I am sure that these highly experienced pilots will find better opportunities and the owners will find better conditions at the other fractional companies. The clock is ticking...

If what you say is totally correct you better be looking to jump ship soon... How in the world can you figure that an already sinking company can absorb the huge financial hit of your new CBA and do any better ?

That's the point isn't it ??? What us non-union people don't get is that it's always better to ask for a raise when things are going well. Pretty difficult to have one hand out while the other is holding a "STFD" sign... And I realize that it's been X number of years, but realistically you can't count those under the previous MEC can you ? If they were as "corrupt" as you say they were who's fault was that ? You voted em in and you voted them out. It was your problem and you fixed, it cost you some time.

 

[gunfyter]

Six does not work here.

 

[On Your Six]

If what you say is totally correct you better be looking to jump ship soon... How in the world can you figure that an already sinking company can absorb the huge financial hit of your new CBA and do any better ?

That's the point isn't it ??? What us non-union people don't get is that it's always better to ask for a raise when things are going well. Pretty difficult to have one hand out while the other is holding a "STFD" sign... And I realize that it's been X number of years, but realistically you can't count those under the previous MEC can you ? If they were as "corrupt" as you say they were who's fault was that ? You voted em in and you voted them out. It was your problem and you fixed, it cost you some time.

Gunfyter is correct - I don't work at NJA. Some of my best aviator friends work there and they talk about the situation all the time - I feel like I know the situation fairly well. During my brief time at UAL (until shortly after 9/11), I got a good sense for how unions work and I am definitely pro-union. I currently fly a Global Express for a part 91 operation out of the NYC area.

NJA's current situation is directly attributed to its own financial mismanagement and the flight crews should not suffer as a result of management's incompetence. My NJA friends talk about considerable waste throughout the system and the operations process (that subject has been beaten to death on these boards) and the subsidization of the formerly struggling NJE operation.

Just ask yourself this question: how is Southwest managed differently than NJA and what is the result? Southwest pilots are loyal and reasonably happy (especially considering the rest of the industry). NJA had the potential to be the "Southwest" of the fractional business with happy and loyal (meaning lower training costs - thank goodness Buffett also owns Flight Safety) but it dropped the ball in a major way. It demonstrates daily how it simply does not care about its employees - especially those who directly interface with the almighty owners... All of my NJA pilot friends are looking at other options right now. What a pity - NJA could have been such a great place to make a career.... But NJA management dropped the ball and now the atmosphere is poisoned. This is a classic situation of "NJA could have been such a great place to work if..."

I feel bad for the NJA crews who actually believed that they would be treated fairly and with respect. After all, I have met some extraodinarily gifted pilots who worked for NJA (a few have recently departed). I know that I would want to find a place where I could park myself for the rest of my career and earn respect and at least industry-average wages (for the aircraft type - not $55K as PIC of a Citation X). Yeah, NJA is in an interesting financial situation right now - so, it should figure out a way to get back on track and reduce the friction it has created. Perhaps Warren should contribute some of his considerable cash hoard to improving the situaiton? Continuing to hold-out (without making some progress) will only create more ill-will and the resulting poor morale won't please the owners....

 

[FAcFriend]

Better go back and get some more info from your traitors with passwords, no one has ever said not to look at these boards.
To paraphrase, don't get worked up over the postings of COMPANY SPOKESPERSONS or UNION BUSTING HIRED GUNS.

First- X402 in regards to your first post- are you saying people who talk to me are traitors? That is the mentality, I was referrring to.

But noone has given me a password and I have not been anywhere I am not supposed to be. the comment was made by a pilot on this board- I filled in the blanks and you added the icing on the cake.

As far as being a company spokesperson or union busting hired gun- I am neither. I do not work for the company nor have I ever pretended I do- I am a writer and originally came here for a story idea and started speaking with Netjetwife.

If you think I should be hired- please let someone who has the authority know

 

[x402]

First- X402 in regards to your first post- are you saying people who talk to me are traitors? That is the mentality, I was referrring to.

Yes, if they pass you half truths to annoy the pilots working for fair wages.

But noone has given me a password and I have not been anywhere I am not supposed to be. the comment was made by a pilot on this board- I filled in the blanks and you added the icing on the cake.

I see, they just let you look over their shoulder.

As far as being a company spokesperson or union busting hired gun- I am neither. I do not work for the company nor have I ever pretended I do- I am a writer and originally came here for a story idea and started speaking with Netjetwife.

Let us know when you get published, can't wait.

If you think I should be hired- please let someone who has the authority know

Jim Jones? Dallas Cowboys, right.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

Steel is a moron

Hmmm that is curious Dispatcher Good Catch.

Yet another 23 year old CFI (JET-GOD) who gets caught hunting Elephants with a BB-Gun... His outward stupidity only briefly shows his personality defects which say nothing of his overall lack of professionalism.



When the more level headed and moderate NJA pilots (whom I regard as professionals) start ranting and raving like this imbecile, then I'll start worrying.



On a side note: I had breakfast with a very senior BBJ Captain last week at the Crown in HPN, we laughed, we joked, and we both talked about the current situation. Needless to say, we both know he isn’t going to see me on his seniority list, and I won’t be seeing him in the Gulfstreams.

 

[miles otoole]

On a side note: I had breakfast with a very senior BBJ Captain last week at the Crown in HPN, we laughed, we joked, and we both talked about the current situation. Needless to say, we both know he isn’t going to see me on his seniority list, and I won’t be seeing him in the Gulfstreams.

I am wondering how the breakfast conversation would have sounded with a very senior NJA Falcon Captain. Would you have laughed and joked about the same things? You and your sorority sister sound like a couple of Delta pilots, years gone by, talking about how Leo Mullin better respect your position.

 

[GEXDriver]

I am wondering how the breakfast conversation would have sounded with a very senior NJA Falcon Captain. Would you have laughed and joked about the same things? You and your sorority sister sound like a couple of Delta pilots, years gone by, talking about how Leo Mullin better respect your position.

The NJA Falcon Captains I know voted for the TA last October.

 

[NJAFracPilot]

The NJA Falcon Captains I know voted for the TA last October.

I did. And i'm still pissed about losing the $25K signing bonus and a year's worth of the 13% raise.

 

[x402]

I did. And i'm still pissed about losing the $25K signing bonus and a year's worth of the 13% raise.

Oh come on, I bet you made that up in extended days in the first quarter. Always good to hear from one of the 17%.

How's that go,'I've got mine f**k everyone else.'

 

[SeaSpray]

Oh come on, I bet you made that up in extended days in the first quarter. Always good to hear from one of the 17%.

Typical Union math: 100% - 82% = 17%.



NJAFracPilot-

No sympathy here. You knew you were joining a union when you took the job. The only thing unique about NetJets is that the junior guys threw the senior guys under the bus, instead of the typical airline union model where the senior captains screw the junior pilots.

SS

 

[SeaSpray]

WolfPackPilot -

Nice to see a well reasoned, non-emotional, rational post from NetJets every now and again.

SS

 

[x402]

Typical Union math: 100% - 82% = 17%.


17.3666% if you need to split hairs. Let's just say he's in the minority.

 

[gunfyter]

He was absent the day they taught rounding rules in Math class.

 

[FamilyGuy]

The only thing unique about NetJets is that the junior guys threw the senior guys under the bus, instead of the typical airline union model where the senior captains screw the junior pilots.

SS

SS - that pretty much sums up the situation here.



Due to the large surge in hiring from 2000 on, we have a majority of the pilots with less than 4 years of service with the company.



This group knows little about the history of the company and how we built the business. As you noted, they are quick to belittle the efforts of the 6, 7, and 8+ year pilots that actually helped build the company from which they now derive their living.



What's ironic is that you see many of them on here bitching about the contract and Mr. Santulli, accusing him of lying to them, and they weren't even at NetJets when the last contract was signed. Nor were they here when Mr. Santulli allegedly promised them 'kick-ass pay'.....



Its actually sad when you think about it....you have a bunch of people that in the last four years grabbed onto the coat-tails of a successful business and now want to second guess how the senior pilots and management, who built the union and the company respectively, are running the business.

 

[x402]

Its actually sad when you think about it....you have a bunch of people that in the last four years grabbed onto the coat-tails of a successful business and now want to second guess how the senior pilots and management, who built the union and the company respectively, are running the business.


I guess you'll have to include the NEW President, DO and a hand full of Senior VP's as coat-tail people who can't understand the big picture and should just let all the 7,8,9 year people make the decisions. Some how I don't see BB stepping away any more than I see all of us 'new' pilots backing off from our drive for fair wages for the work we do TODAY for NJA.

As far as a senior 2000 driver thinking his 25k bonus is all he had to lose in the old TA, well that's his problem.

 

[On Your Six]

Yet another 23 year old CFI (JET-GOD) who gets caught hunting Elephants with a BB-Gun... His outward stupidity only briefly shows his personality defects which say nothing of his overall lack of professionalism.



When the more level headed and moderate NJA pilots (whom I regard as professionals) start ranting and raving like this imbecile, then I'll start worrying.




On a side note: I had breakfast with a very senior BBJ Captain last week at the Crown in HPN, we laughed, we joked, and we both talked about the current situation. Needless to say, we both know he isn’t going to see me on his seniority list, and I won’t be seeing him in the Gulfstreams.

With all due respect, a senior BBJ Captain has already reached the peak and probably doesn't worry so much about paying his mortgage (i.e., he's not a Citation X Captain earning $55-60K) and moving up the ladder... His perspective will be vastly different from that of an Ultra Captain or a G200 FO. He probably laughed because he knows he doesn't have much further to go - and he doesn't want to fly a smaller aircraft (GV)....

 

[Ultra Grump]

On a side note: I had breakfast with a very senior BBJ Captain last week at the Crown in HPN, we laughed, we joked, and we both talked about the current situation. Needless to say, we both know he isn’t going to see me on his seniority list, and I won’t be seeing him in the Gulfstreams.

If you don't see how completely asinine that statement was, there is no hope for you and it'd be a waste of space to try to explain it.

 

[squonk]

FamilyGuy:

This group knows little about the history of the company and how we built the business

The only history lesson we were given when I was hired was how they needed to gobble up market share. One of the ways of doing this was hire, hire, hire. When airlines furloughed, they hired. Retired airline, hire 'em! Guess who had more experience with fighting management?

That's the way he wanted it...well, he gets it. You have to take the good with the bad.

 

[GVFlyer]

He probably laughed because he knows he doesn't have much further to go - and he doesn't want to fly a smaller aircraft (GV)....

There are some of us that wouldn't want to take the pay cut to fly the Boeing (max pay NJLA-$213K), nor do we want to spend our lives at Mach 0.78 in the thirties thinking about cross-over AOA for entertainment.

GV

 

[FamilyGuy]

FamilyGuy:

The only history lesson we were given when I was hired was how they needed to gobble up market share. One of the ways of doing this was hire, hire, hire. When airlines furloughed, they hired. Retired airline, hire 'em! Guess who had more experience with fighting management?

That's the way he wanted it...well, he gets it. You have to take the good with the bad.

If the ex-airline guys have so much experience fighting management, then why didnt they fix the low starting pay for FO's and the underfunded pension issues?

And as I stated several weeks ago, the airlines are not the best example to be following right now...

 

[On Your Six]

If the ex-airline guys have so much experience fighting management, then why didnt they fix the low starting pay for FO's and the underfunded pension issues?

And as I stated several weeks ago, the airlines are not the best example to be following right now...

At NJA, the pay is just low - period............. Forget the low starting pay - it tends to be low at the airlines, but corporate flight departments pay a lot more depending upon type. Again, I know FOs who fly the Citation X out of the NYC area who easily clear $65-70K - again, as FOs.... At NJA, Citation X Captains (after 5+ years at NJA) are paid roughly $55-60K annually. That is ridiculous...

At NJA, the pay is abysmal. You can't spin that point - it's a fact. At the end of the day, NJA will get what they pay for... If things don't change, the best and most experienced pilots at NJA will leave and only the most desparate pilots will consider joining.

One of my NJA friends told me recently,"NJA had such great potential of being a great place to work for the rest of my career. That potential has been dashed and now I am looking elsewhere." He is an excellent aviator and the type of pilot NJA wants to keep - great flying skills and attention to customer details (great customer service type of person). Instead, he has an interview with Jet Blue in November - I hope he gets hired.

 

[El Chupacabra]

Six.

chances are things will get sorted out soon... my understanding is negotiations are back on. Something good must have happened. I hope.