Steep turns and Va?

[UndauntedFlyer]

I'm curious what CFI's teach for steep (45 or 50 degree bank) turns with regard to airspeed. The PTS says to select an airspeed not to exceed maneuvering speed (Va) and that that speed is to be held plus or minus 10K throughout the maneuver. This all sounds easy to understand. Sometimes I see applicants choose Va as their target which is OK with me. And sometimes I have students choose a speed that is at least 10K below Va for fear of exceeding Va in the maneuver. Either way is fine with me but I am just wondering what is being taught with regard to this in other areas of the USA.

 

[timeoff]

On a recent FR down here in FL, I had an instructor describe one as set power at 2200rpm and maintain 105-110kts. This was in a 172 and Va for our weight was around 97kts. Obviously outside of what the pts dictates for that manuver.

 

[gkrangers]

Va is 132 knots in the Duchess...I fly steep turns at 110 knots. Seems like a nice airspeed, and I typically prefer to fly slower in the practice area since most of the maneuvers require slower airspeeds (don't want to waste time slowing down) and don't want to cover a ton of ground (restricted area to the south)...

Other than that I don't have any real rhyme or reason to the airspeed...

I can't remember what I use in the 172, been a while.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Have you calculated it out to be sure that the folks who are doing it "10 kts below Va" aren't actually doing it at Va? I know I don't usually teach steep turns in a fully-loaded airplane flying at max gross.

 

[Catbert]

The PTS says:

Establishes the manufacturer’s recommended airspeed or if one is
not stated, a safe airspeed not to exceed VA .

(Bold is mine)

I teach mostly in the 172. The Cessna information manual we use recommends 95 kts, so that's what I have 'em use.

 

[UA-RESURRECTED]

Curious as to why this maneuver must be started at Va. No matter the speed, you shouldn't be exceeding +2G's in a steep turn, and even a normal category aircraft is rated to +3.8G's.

 

[JustFly]

Va

Please re-read Catbert's post-Va is not a "must", it is to be used only if the manufacturer does not give a recommended speed. If the POH give a speed above Va for the manuever then that is the speed to be used.

 

[FN FAL]

Please re-read Catbert's post-Va is not a "must", it is to be used only if the manufacturer does not give a recommended speed. If the POH give a speed above Va for the manuever then that is the speed to be used.

Can you cite the "must"? Not doubting you, but the citation would be nice.

 

[Ralgha]

Curious as to why this maneuver must be started at Va. No matter the speed, you shouldn't be exceeding +2G's in a steep turn, and even a normal category aircraft is rated to +3.8G's.

Well, it's not "must", but it's a good idea because students like to let the nose drop, then honk back on the yoke without reducing the bank resulting in more G's and a tighter turn with the altitude still dropping. Then they repeat until the CFI steps in.

 

[gkrangers]

Reading Catberts PTS quote, where doesit say anything about performing the maneuver at Va?

Either perform it at the manufacterers recommended airspeed, or BELOW Va.

???

 

[JustFly]

I was replying to UA. My point was that "must" (I was referencing UA's post) is the wrong word to use in general since the FAA in the PTS indicates to use the manufacturers recommended speed or at or below Va if there is not a recommended speed. When in doubt go with the manual, if it say to perform steep turns at a speed above Va then you can do any speed up to the recommended speed. This applies to any manuever for which there is a recommended speed.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

I know of no GA aircraft used for training (C152, C172, PA-28, etc.) that does not have a published Va.

Personally I think there is way too much emphasis on Va as some speed, which if exceeded during any maneuver, is going to somehow result in a high probability of structural damage to the airplane. The key to maintaining the structural integrity of the airplane is to simply not exceed the designed load factor. This is the key, pure and simple. And in no way, in my opinion, is the worst student ever going to exceed 3.8 g's for normal category airplanes doing any of the private pilot or the commercial pilot maneuvers, even if they are totally botched.

Even when I do a normal aerobatic routine in my Decathlon that typically might include loops, rolls, Cuban 8's, reverse Cuban’s, hammerheads and Immelmans, I barely get to 3.5 G's. And as a matter of fact, when I begin most aerobatic maneuvers, except a snap roll, I am well above Va because I need the stored airspeed energy to complete the maneuver in a 180HP airplane.

So I would guess that Va is selected by the FAA for most GA certification maneuvers like steep turns, chandelles, and lazy 8's because there is some merit (almost none) for selecting this speed. But unfortunately the result of this emphasis is that many pilots blindly drink the “cool-aid” regarding VA as a speed that will do everything including guarantee eternal life in an airplane. Nice thought but Va isn't really that important an airspeed.

So as this thread started out discussing steep turns and Va, just pick any airspeed from VA to less than Va (unless the POH shows something different) and begin the maneuver. Hold that target airspeed plus or minus 10K as a standard. If your local DPE that you use says to do it at a lesser speed then you have no choice but to do it his/her way. Don't go any lower than 10K below Va though, because climb performance will be lost if the airplane gets low in altitude and a climb is necessary. Higher airspeeds represent stored energy that can be used to a pilot's advantage when required.

Your questions or comments are welcome……..

 

[VNugget]

I know of no GA aircraft used for training (C152, C172, PA-28, etc.) that does not have a published Va.

Plus it's not like it needs to be published for one to be able to figure it out

 

[sky37d]

I just did my BFR, and we did steep turns at a reasonable airspeed, but no where near VA.

 

[DGdaPilot]

In single engine Cessnas I always used (and taught) the speeds recommended. They always worked well, so I never went much outside that envelope. I do agree that you can go do steep turns at Va+30kts and not do any damage....just realize that you will no longer necessarily stall before you hit the aircraft's G-limit (like when your student loses altitude and decides to haul back on the yolk).

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

I do agree that you can go do steep turns at Va+30kts and not do any damage....just realize that you will no longer necessarily stall before you hit the aircraft's G-limit (like when your student loses altitude and decides to haul back on the yolk).

And even if he hauls back hard there is no structural problem until you get to 3.8 g's in a normal catagory airplane, or 4.4 g's if the airplane is loaded to still be in utility catagory. That would be very hard to do no matter how bad a pilot's steep turns might become.