Splitting Muti time three ways...

[Weasil]

I think it's interesting that this thread is running next to one on logbook padding. The poll currently shows 15% of pilots responding have padded their logbooks! It's not a scientific poll but that is still quite alot of pilots - and that's just the ones willing to admit it.

Which flight schools conduct 3 way logging?

 

[501261]

One thing to think about as A Squared alluded to this ruling earlier.

There’s a case where two MEI’s had all their tickets revoked because they where both logging PIC in a multi. I’d say two MEI’s both logging PIC in an Apache is a whole lot more legal than 3 way PIC! Yet they both got their tickets pulled.

NTSB Ruling

Personally I think if an ASI ever wanted to violate someone for 3 way PIC they would have a pretty easy case. Just imagine under the FAA’s system of administrative law of trying to prove that you are not in violation of 61.59, but that’s just me.

Ralpha, no, IMO it’s simply BS time. In the example you gave the CFI in the right seat is either instructing or he’s not. What in the world are you going to do from the backseat? Just as much as when your student does his first solo, yet your not logging that “radio” time as PIC are you?

The reason I feel so strongly about this issue is that it is very unfair to a lot of people that have flown with me though the years. I have had a lot of “SIC’s” that did a whole lot more than “instruct from the backseat” that weren’t able to log a minute of flight time because a technicality (1 pilot airplane- King Airs, Citations, Turbo Commanders). Yet here you are logging flight time “from the backseat” because of a technicality.

 

[Ralgha]

First off, where the hell did I say I was logging time from the back seat?

I think it's valid for a CFII to provide instruction from the back seat to a CFII applicant who is in the right seat practicing on an IFR student in the left seat. Personally I would not do it because of liability issues, but I'm not going to fault those that chose to.

As far as logging PIC from the back seat, there is no place in the FARs that says the PIC must be in a crew position. That is not an oversight either, since the rules for logging SIC time specifically state that you must be at a crewmember station. If you are acting as PIC, then you may log PIC time no matter where you are in the airplane. Your example of a student solo is completely unrelated because you are not acting as PIC.

IFR student is sole manipulator of the controls, he/she logs PIC time. CFII applicant is acting as PIC as a safety pilot and is required since the IFR student is under the hood, he/she logs PIC time. CFII in the back is acting as an authorized instructor and can log PIC as well. No where does it say where the authorized instructor has to sit. Granted, this may very well be an oversight (personally I think it should be specified that the instructor be within reach of the controls), in which case it would probably be changed if brought to the proper person's attention.

An ATP logging PIC time while asleep in the back seat? Legal, but I don't think it's moral. Same student/CFII applicant/CFII situation done for the sole purpose of building time? Legal but not moral in my view. However, if done for the purpose of training and everyone benifits (and they could if done right), then I see no problem with it.

If anything goes wrong though, the CFII in the backseat is well and truely screwed, so it's a bad idea in any case.

 

[falcondriver]

If you have to spend this much time talking about if its legal or not, It's probably not. Call the FSDO and explain what the school is doing and see what happens...NOT
FD

 

[Checks]

No where does it say where the authorized instructor has to sit.

Where does it say I cant log time while reading this thread? Where?

I logged 3.1 today, all while surfing flightinfo.



Giving pointers from the backseat is legit, logging flight time is not.
My reference? Common Sense!

 

[Timebuilder]

If you are not at a pilot station, you have no more business logging time than you do as an airline passenger.

Hey. That gives me an idea. I can apply to Delta with 9,000 hours of jet time!!

Seriously, in an instructional or simulated instrument situation, no more than two humans should be logging time per aircraft.

 

[Weasil]

I may as well start logging simulator instruction as PIC time then. I'll make sure the sim is configured as a multi.....

hehe...

 

[Checks]

I also Flew on Delta last week, I might log that time since I am ATP rated. I gave the pilot some pointers on landing in a crosswind.

 

[flying4life]

I was jumpseating on NW and sat in the back; I heard a loud "oil canning" noise and felt the vibration in the floor. I told them when we landed and they wrote it up. I was an active participant so I guess I can log that time too.
All kidding aside, I think it comes down to integrity, common sense, and good judgement. Seriously, 3 people acting as PIC, all logging it, Ok, who has the final authority here?
What you really have is someone who has found a way to work inside the legal rules and wants everyone else to think that it must be ok. Congradulations if you think its justified, I don't think it will make you a better pilot.......... seee ya

 

[upncoming]

"Squared" - Nope, 50% is all you get on the quiz, you cannot log the time in the second scenario. Hope you didn't ever do this or YOUR logs are "full" of bogus time. And not all of the time I spent with two other pilots in the airplane was in twins, so your argument of my multi time prior to getting a non-CFI job is pointless, as are most of your other remarks. And don't tell me what to do regarding reading or anything else, I have supported my argument with references, so I see no reason for you to whale away. I sure hope you logged "safety time" accurately too, remember it's only the time the other guy is under the hood, not the time the two of you spent taxiing, etc.

Others have made comments regarding ethics and the latest is in regard to finding a loophole of sorts and that this type of time won't make you a "better pilot". Gheez, amazing stuff, all emotional responses. Look folk, if it is legal at the time you do it (and it is because I have an offical letter from FAA HQ that I can dig up if you like) then it's ethical. The regs are there in part to eliminate unethical behavior, aren't they? Sorry, my benchmark for "ethical" behavior will be the regs, not the opinions represented here or by other pilots who may not have utilized that approach to training. And who said anything about it making you a "better pilot"? It was utilized as a tool to help others become better pilots, at least the way I did it.

As for opinions from a FSDO, please, I hope you don't buy into that argument. Show me a FSDO that says you cannot do this and I will show you one who says you can. Also, there is nothing that says you have to be seated at a pilot's station to log flight time, so forget that argument. Comparisons to flying in the back of an airliner, oh gheez, I won't even go there, MONUMENTALLY absurd to compare the two.

So that's it folks, count me out. I originally made a post to help, not to get a barrage of negative commentary. I did log time this way, though not a lot of it. Per the letter I have from the FAA, it's legal and that's enough for me WRT to "ethics". YMMV.

TexanAviator and others, good luck.

 

[cvsfly]

Good luck to you and your career. I will definitely look and question future resumes more closely in the future.

 

[Checks]

let us see this "letter"

I will introduce you to Santa Claus if you can produce this "letter"


BTW, I logged another .5 reading this post, where in the regs does it say I cant log time reading about flying? Where?I might get me one of them their letters also!

 

[jergar999]

Simply put, think about the following:

As a professional pilot I will likely have my logbooks looked at by:

1. An administrator of the FAA who wants to revoke my certificate.

or

2. An interviewer and fellow pilot much like the people on this board.

If you decide to try to strech a legal definition in a desperate attempt to cram some hours in your book it will show, and probably come into question at the worst possible time (interview).

 

[SPBRIAN]

First you can go to every FSDO in the US and get that many different responses on a regulation interpretation. The only response on any FAR interpretations will come from the regional council and those are the interpretations that the NTSB and FAA will use in hanging you if they don't like what you are doing. In that sense I would have to believe if you have thought of a loophole or found a loophole in the regulations I would bet that they have case law to close those loopholes.

-Brian

 

[A Squared]

Upncoming,

OK, so number 2 is wrong, fair entough. do you have some support for that? I thought I'd seen an interpretation which stated it was legal, but perhaps not. In either case, don't worry too much about my logbooks, they can pass the sniff test. I wouldn't worry too much about my safety pilot time either, I have, I think, 2.2 hours of safety pilot time logged. I logged it because conventional wisdom said that you should. After the second flight logged that way, I thought about what I was doing and asked myself why I was putting it in my logbook. My preference was to have my logbook reflect flying that I had actually done, and I wasn't doing any flying ...soooo I stopped logging safety pilot time. I don't think that safety pilot time is necessarily wrong, per se, I just chose not to put any more in my logbook.

>>>>>"Sorry, my benchmark for "ethical" behavior will be the regs"

Well, generally speaking, the law is about a low a bench mark as one can find for morality. Even the most ethically stunted among us can grasp that laws and regulations frequently fail to proscribe unethical behavior. In some cases, laws actually require unethical behavior ... but that is another discussion. The point is, and this point has been made before, and you still seem to be missing it, is that legality is *not* the sole determiner of ethics.

Essentially, your attitude is "whatever I can get away with under the regulations is just fine" That is not ethics, that's convenience. There's a vast gulf of difference between the two. You may be unable to appreciate the difference, hopefully others can.

Lastly, to address your whinging about the "barrage of negative comments"; The negative comments are kinda the whole point ... yet another point you seem to be missing. What I would hope a young aviator would draw from this entire discussion would be that while you may find a few who won't object, the staggering majority of the aviation community thinks that triple logging is a bit sleazy.

 

[mizzouguy]

Ive trained plenty of CFI applicants while sitting in the backseat, but did i log the time? No way. Besides, its pretty sad if you need the time that bad as opposed to the experience of actually flying the airplane which will come out in the wash. Now did i charge the student for that time while I was in the back seat? Absolutely

 

[superrav]

Im an MEI..and currently splitting time with friends, and act as safety pilot for half of the flights...i read that the pilot flying should put the safety pilots name in his log book. What about the safety pilot..what should he put? Also, If we're both MEI's should we just both log dual recieved in each others logbooks? Just making sure i do this right.

 

[flying_gringo]

why not throw a fourth person in?

1. Student under the hood
2. Safety Pilot
3. Instructor teaching students
4. ATP giving instruction towards an ATP for all.

There's got to be a way to get a fifth and sixth... I don't want to send my plane out with empty seats now.

don't take this seriously.

fg

 

[Thedude]

I wanna know if I can log instument time while reading this thread.......

and I think a spin endorsement may be required too...I think I am gonna hurl


evidence that you should never type while drinking heavily

 

[socal 60]

LOGGING MEI IN THE BACK SEAT

Take a look at this:

Tucson, AZ - 3 Fatalities

The MEI was in the back seat.