Spirit TA

[Lear70]

Unfortunately, that's not exactly true. There is another way for a company to get the courts involved in the Section 6 process: allegations of bad-faith bargaining. The company can go to federal court and claim that the union is negotiating in bad faith, which is a violation of the RLA. The NMB doesn't rule on those things, the courts do. It's entirely possible that a judge would issue a preliminary injunction barring any self-help until after the case can be heard in court, which could delay another strike for quite some time.

Well, first, I don't believe that's EVER happened in the history of airline negotiations under the RLA. There's no established case law, nor trigger points, nor litmus test for that to happen.

Second, that's an awfully large burden of proof to carry in a court of law, and about as likely as carrying the same argument as if the union were to sue the company for the same allegation. We all know how THOSE legal battles have played out...

In other words: not possible under the current circumstances. The Spirit MEC has conducted their bargaining as honestly and directly as possible. If the pilots vote it down, it won't be under "bad faith bargaining" from their representative unit.

Now, with that said, I don't think that's the main concern. There is a far greater likelihood of a PEB than there is of court action. And although everyone here wants to dismiss it, a PEB is not at all out of the question for Spirit. While it's true that the NMB would not recommend a PEB to the White House for Spirit under normal circumstances, a second strike within a few weeks is not normal circumstances, and I think it's quite possible, maybe even likely, that the President would issue a PEB to at least slow things down for another month. Two strikes at the same airline within weeks is very bad for politics.

I highly doubt it. Political or not (and I certainly agree with you on the political ramifications), there's just not enough of an impact on air travel to appoint a PEB.

By the time the voting is complete, it will be more like a couple of MONTHS, not just "a few weeks", between shut downs. More than likely, the MEC will have to go to the company with the issues, issue another deadline for a strike, and try to negotiate another agreement.

I personally hope they DON'T do that, simply because of our work to get released at AAI, but like I said, I wouldn't vote for the T.A. they have... they gave up too much (they only really got COLA raises after the 150% overtime loss and Scope sucks). I don't like having to fly 90 hours to get the yearly income I believe is appropriate for my experience level... my family is more important to me.

We'll see how they vote... like I said, I think it will pass, but I believe it'll be close.

 

[lostplnetairman]

I personally hope they DON'T do that, simply because of our work to get released at AAI, but like I said, I wouldn't vote for the T.A. they have... they gave up too much (they only really got COLA raises after the 150% overtime loss and Scope sucks). I don't like having to fly 90 hours to get the yearly income I believe is appropriate for my experience level... my family is more important to me.

We'll see how they vote... like I said, I think it will pass, but I believe it'll be close.

So how should the scope clause read? What's AirTran's?

 

[Shrek]

Didn't you leave Spirit to go to United? A United captain tops out at 138 an hour with a crappy pref bidding system and no 4 days off. At DOS a Spirit Captain will top out at $151.67 and after 4 years will top out at $185.32

Not knocking United..but don't tell us to vote NO for a contract that puts our captains at 34% higher than the airline you went to.

I would also guarantee that the Spirit scheduling section is much better than United's scheduling section. Can you bid a conflict and get an extra 6 days off pay protected (our TA allows that), are you guaranteed 4 days off?, does your scheduling system allow you to convert a week of vacation into 3 weeks. I also love our new bid options and reserve system. Can United release you from reserve early into rest? (Our TA prohibits that). Can United junior assign you while you are at the airport (Our TA prohibits that). Do you guys have line bidding or pref bidding?

Honestly...I could go on and on...so tell me all the things you like in the United scheduling section that we don't have at Spirit.

Yes I did go to United to be closer to my family.

I surely didn't go to UAL because of the post bankruptcy contract or scheduling section. And yes, I expect alot more out of UAL's next contract..........among many other improvements.

I enjoyed my time at Spirit - at least the people I was exposed to.

 

[Shrek]

Sorry, everytime I met him all he did was complain about Spirit. That was my experience.

I seriously doubt that. I may have shared opinions on what could be better or what I would change but complaining?! - nah not a sour grapes kind of guy. And to the people that actually know me would vouch for that.

Nevertheless - I have stated my opinion on the TA.

 

[flyboycmsu]

I'll vouch for you

 

[Lear70]

Scope was one of the primary platforms that we killed T.A.'s 1 and 2 on a few years ago at AirTran.

The pilots have told the MEC, in no uncertain language, that Scope is a non-starter. We've seen our flying outsourced during this contract, and won't let it continue.

Like I said early on in this discussion, you need to cap Scope NOW... while management isn't that interested in doing an end run around your pilots. Much easier to fix it now (before the camel's nose is under the tent) than in your NEXT contract when you're already farming out flying...

Those who don't learn from history...

 

[lostplnetairman]

This is the third time I've asked.

What should the scope clause say?

 

[CosmoKramer]

This is the third time I've asked.

What should the scope clause say?

Give him some time, geesh...His quality of life is not as good as yours.....

 

[Lear70]

This is the third time I've asked.

What should the scope clause say?

It's only the 2nd time I've seen you ask.

Scope should do 3 things:

1. Not allow ANYONE else to fly your routes under any kind of ticket sold by, printed by, or having the logo of, Spirit Airlines for more than 90 days TOTAL by that airline in any 3 year time period. This means no "code-shares", "joint marketing ventures", or any other arrangement that has another airline flying Spirit passengers. In ANY seat configuration. Jets, turboprops, whatever. NOTHING.

Keeping it locked to 90 days in any 3 year time period prevents any kind of "seasonal shift" to an RJ market once a year, then back to mainline equipment. We've seen companies try that one, too. You have to give them a little leeway to try out a new market or fleet type if they want, but 90 days is plenty to see whether it's cost effective or not. If it is, they put Spirit planes and pilots on the routes. If it's not, they abandon it and don't go back for a few years.

2. Disallow any kind of "wet lease" or even "dry lease" of your aicraft for anything more than 30 days and make sure they can't do the same thing seasonally as mentioned above by limiting how often they can do it yearly, bi-yearly, etc. Seasonal furloughs suck. Just ask Sun Country.

3. Bind the holding company. Doesn't do ANY good to lock down Scope just to have the parent company / holding company do an end run around it like Pinnacle is doing right now with Colgan, just to name one. To be honest, I don't know what Spirit's ownership is set up under being a privately-held company, but if it's a subsidiary of another company, you have to bind the holding company or Scope is worthless, we have established case law for that.

Without those things, you can just about guarantee they will start farming stuff out when you get to a certain size. Only Southwest and JetBlue haven't and the latter doesn't need to; they have RJ's. Nearly EVERY other airline has done it. Learn from history...

Give him some time, geesh...His quality of life is not as good as yours.....

You have NO idea... I just finished an 18 hour duty day taking 2 deceased soldiers home to their families. You can't begin to imagine what kind of suffering their families go through.

Yes, I'm drinking heavily. Going on 3 years in grievance process and working on Month 6 after arbitration waiting for results... Oh yeah, did I mention you need expedited grievance language moving ALL termination grievances to the front of the line? :/

 

[Beetle007]

Scope was one of the primary platforms that we killed T.A.'s 1 and 2 on a few years ago at AirTran.

The pilots have told the MEC, in no uncertain language, that Scope is a non-starter. We've seen our flying outsourced during this contract, and won't let it continue.

The AirTran contract was amendable in September 2005! You might have turned down two TAs...how has that worked out?

AirTran has continued to outsource and they haven't given the pilots a pay raise. Seems like the company is in a win win situation (outsource and no pay raises).

The best thing that can happen for Airtran pilots is to get released into self help. If Spirit pilots reject that TA that the NMB worked hard to put together, I imagine the NMB will be likely to release another ALPA group. If Spirit pilots go on a second strike, I don't think you will see another ALPA group get released for a long time. It is very important that ALPA remains in favor with the NMB so that ALPA can continue pattern bargaining and get pay raises for all pilots in the industry (not just Spirit).