Spirit MD80 T/O @ FLL: How "normal" was that?

[TurboS7]

Going out of LGA with a "lead sled" 727-200 with JT8D-7 engines going to MIA was a real treat. Flaps 25, and rotate at VR and she would always go. The 727 is a GREAT airplane, I can't say that for the feministic junk that we fly around now.

 

[AAflyer]

FUN!!

Done the 727 out of LGA to MIA, always fun. The words that come to my mind are "balanced field" Ha Ha Ha

AA

 

[enigma]

All I know about an MD-88 was an observation from the JS pre 911. The temp was over 100F and we were jammed(every seat full) taking off out of LAS going to IAH. We rolled and rolled and rolled some more. Finally we roatated and rotated and rotated some more and wow, it flew. ....barely. I thought those runs were long on a 727, I must admit the MD-80 beat us.

I'll probably give myself away (to the company guys) with this one, but I've rolled over 11000ft on LAS runway 7. It always took about a 45 minute wait until ATC could find a departure slot amidst the 25 arrivals, but it was the only way to coax the old Maddog off with enough fuel to reach DTW. We took off with nothing hanging from the wing except mid position slats. That's right boys, a No Flap take off. It's really no problem, in essence you are doing your second segment climb while still on the runway. The only real problem is ensuring that you don't remain groundbound too long and exceed the main tire limit speed. (I'm too lazy to look it up, don't tell the fed's please, but I think that said speed is 185 knots) Rotate at 171 and get off before 185. BTW, the roof tops of east Henderson are quite detailed!

Someone mentioned that the MD80 is difficult to manage during a V1 cut. I, thank GOD, have no first hand experience with real engine failures at take off. The sim isn't as hard to handle during single engine work as was implied by that writer. V1 cuts in a jet are easy, but then again I flew Junkstream 31's for comparison. I'll take the Maddog, or Lear, any day over any t-prop.

enigma

 

[350DRIVER]

350

How much time do you have in the 80? I guess JS time now counts as to experience on that particular aircraft?

I have noticed somehting over the past couple years of your posts, from PFT to airline mergers you have strong opinion about everything. You seem arrogant, and many times down right rude.

Not trying to flame you, or start some thread war, but what is up? Are you a mean person in general? For what it is worth, you seem young, you have a long career ahead of you, don't burn out early.

AA

How much time & experience did I say I had in the 80? I kind of thought so.... You may want to re-read my post, I merely said that was my "observation" from the j/s, nothing more and nothing less.

3 5 0 ( supposedly the mean, arrogant, and rude young pilot)

I have noticed somehting over the past couple years of your posts, from PFT to airline mergers you have strong opinion about everything. You seem arrogant, and many times down right rude.

Mr. Sam Rasonl (AA/DFW) how you like that one?!?

 

[flx757]

I have found 4 MD's at the company you work for with scrapes on the tail skid in the last six months. Some people are WAY to aggressive with the rotation. I know they hammer it into you that it is not a two stage rotation, but perhaps they are overdoing it if people are scraping tails (and they are).

If you do it right, you can rotate without doing it in a two stage maneuver and not scrape the tail either. I don't know why you want to make more of it than what it is. I have said my piece on this subject....stated my opinion, and given what I believe to be the proper way to rotate the MD-80, (or 737, or 757 for that matter).

So, I have nothing further to add to this "discussion". You guys can duke it out, if you wish.

BTW....how many tail strikes on the 737 at "your" company, Singlecoil? Pilots can get WAY to aggressive rotating ANY airplane. I, for one, don't "drum" anything into anyone. I simply teach the proper profiles and procedures. That's what I get paid to do.

Now, I guess I'll go back to what I DON'T get paid to do (at least I wouldn't call it "getting paid"...and that's ripping a few off on the humbuckers... (or the occasional singlecoil...)

 

[DenverDude2002]

You can rotate/takeoff without making it a 2 step process???

I cant even do a 1 step in my Piper Warrior (grant ya I only have 30 hrs but still)

Anyoen have any suggestions?

 

[flx757]

You can rotate/takeoff without making it a 2 step process???

I cant even do a 1 step in my Piper Warrior (grant ya I only have 30 hrs but still)

Anyoen have any suggestions?

Yep. Smoothly rotate at 2.5-3 degrees per second until reaching target pitch attitude. It's really not that complicated.

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

Reminds me of alot of the 152/172's that have part of their tail tiedowns ground off...

 

[Singlecoil]

Perhaps I came across a little huffy. That certainly wasn't my intention. I don't know if the Boeing boys are scraping those as well, but they do a two stage rotation. I agree a 2.5 to 3 second rate shouldn't be a problem, but I remember as a new hire being shown the graph of my rotation technique. It was definitely an item they stressed that it was not acceptable to do a two stage rotation. They wanted to see a nice straight line on the graph. You're right, many airplanes can be scraped with improper technique. I've even seen a Dash-8-200 scraped on take-off.

The captains that rotate to 15 degrees in 2 or 3 seconds get me puckering a little. I guess its just a pet peeve of mine.

 

[EagleRJ]

I wonder sometimes about the performance data, especially during hot weather. According to the FARs for Part 25 aircraft, you can lose an engine at V1, wait two seconds (recognition and decision time), and then place the aircraft in stopping configuration and stop before the end of the runway or stopway. I've seen numerous hot/heavy takeoffs where there's no f#*%ing way we would have gotten stopped!
I sometimes "bump" the numbers, or just go MAX on the shorter runways. Anyone else do the same?

What's an ASAP report?

ASAP is an Aviation Safety Action Program. It's the Part 121 equivalent of the NASA form, for those airlines that have the program approved with the FAA.

What does that mean, "heavy with the flex"?

Flex is one name for reduced power during takeoff. By using an "assumed temperature" that is higher than ambient, you can find a power setting that will let you just barely make your climb profile, instead of making it with lots of altitude to spare. It saves wear and tear on the engines, and the remaining power is always available if you do lose an engine, or if you are taking off behind a heavy.

 

[TonyC]

I sometimes "bump" the numbers, or just go MAX on the shorter runways. Anyone else do the same?

Food for thought:

I forget the exact number; I'm sure someone will chime in with some help. Something on the order of 96% of all jet engine failures during takeoff are at MAX power vs. reduced power.

Electing MAX power on the "shorter" runway actually increases your odds that you'll get to REJECT on that shorter runway.

 

[Sunnfun]

ASAP is an Aviation Safety Action Program. It's the Part 121 equivalent of the NASA form, for those airlines that have the program approved with the FAA.



Flex is one name for reduced power during takeoff. By using an "assumed temperature" that is higher than ambient, you can find a power setting that will let you just barely make your climb profile, instead of making it with lots of altitude to spare. It saves wear and tear on the engines, and the remaining power is always available if you do lose an engine, or if you are taking off behind a heavy.

Thanks, great explanation!

Just one more question, if you use reduced power for a takeoff, at what point would you go FULL power? Is there a provision at all to do that? I'm just speculating but if the Spirit guys noticed during the take/off roll, that they might be a little light on the power would you just add power or go with what was supposed to work according to your computed t/o data?

Cheers,
Sun'n Fun

 

[chperplt]

Just one more question, if you use reduced power for a takeoff, at what point would you go FULL power?

You wouldn't go to full power unless you had a situation requiring it.. If you were on the take-off roll and felt as if you needed more power, you would use more power.

At my company, we stay at flex power until 10,000 feet, when we switch to climb power.

 

[EagleRJ]

You could add power at any time. If you have an engine failure, windshear, vehicle on the runway in front of you, etc, just push it up. For most FADEC-controlled engines, that means just pushing the thrust levers all the way forward and the computer will give you everything (and most planes will do it automatically in the case of an engine failure).

With older jet engines and most turboprops, you still need to manually set maximum power by looking at the gauges. If the FLEX/reduced power setting is lower than it should be, it could have been caused by a mistake in reading the charts, or it could be erroneous engine data (like Air Florida #90 at DCA). The remedy is just to push the levers up to the maximum setting. One nice thing about the older engines (which can also get you in trouble) is that you can spool the engine up to more than 100% of rated power. In an extreme emergency, you can get 110% or more for a short time. You'll destroy the engine, since the internal temperatures will soar above the limits, and you can get other problems like case rub, but the power is there if you really need it.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

MAX power and engine failure

Food for thought:

I forget the exact number; I'm sure someone will chime in with some help. Something on the order of 96% of all jet engine failures during takeoff are at MAX power vs. reduced power.

Electing MAX power on the "shorter" runway actually increases your odds that you'll get to REJECT on that shorter runway.

At TWA, they check pilots always told us there had never been an engine failure at the company while using reduced power for T/O. They would encouarage the line pilots to use reduced power (or T/O FLEX for the MD80) even if it were reduced only by 1 degree (temp. setting) or ruduced by .01 EPR for the DC9.

I was never sure if that were true or just a way of getting us to follow company procedure. However, I believe TONY C is correct about the stats. of engine failures on T/O occuring with MAX power.

Jeff

 

[flx757]

The captains that rotate to 15 degrees in 2 or 3 seconds get me puckering a little. I guess its just a pet peeve of mine.

No problem, my friend. 15 degrees in 2 or 3 seconds would have me doing a little more than puckering, I think....