Spirit MD80 T/O @ FLL: How "normal" was that?

[Sunnfun]

I was holding midfield 9L @FLL the other day to get to the cargo ramp on the other side, and saw a Spirit MD-80 taking off. After rotation that thing was just dragging it's butt on the runway and it took what seemed forever to me to eventually lift off and start a slow climb. There was even a huge cloud of dust hanging over the overrun afterwards, blown up by the engines. It looked like he was maybe 150 ft. when he cleared the fence. It sure looked interesting!

I'm sure that all the t/o-data was by the books, but i'm just curious as to how "close" that really was. It was the usual pretty hot day (maybe 95) and my 402 @ MTOW climbed like I had only one engine about an hour later.

Maybe someone can enlighten me?

Cheers,
Sun'n Fun

 

[350DRIVER]

The MD-80/88's "appear" like that for a reason on takeoff. I assume they were heavy and even if they weren't the crew cannot just pull back on the controls due the the length of this airplane. I cannot remember but last time I j/s on the 80, I believe it was only 7 to 10 degree initial pitch on rotation to accelerate before they really lit it up.

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[flx757]

Md-80s make a normal rotation, just like every other aircraft. A nice, smooth, 2.5-3 degree per second rotation..all in one move...not a two-step rotation...to whatever pitch is commanded by the flight director, which varies with weight and temperature, but is usually between 15 and 20 degrees. Certainly not 7-10 degrees. The target pitch on rotation for an engine failure on takeoff is 13 degrees, then follow the flight director guidance. So, on two engines, the ptich required to give you V2 + 10 would be something more than that, in most cases. Although a very common "technique" (which is incorrect, per our procedures, by the way), is that 2-step rotation I mentioned earlier.

If you rotate properly, and not yank it right up to 20 degrees in 2 seconds, or something like that, you are not going to strike the tail. There is no more danger of a tail strike on an MD-80 than there is on a 737-900 or 757. It just requires proper procedures during the rotation.

If they cleared the fence by 150 feet, then perhaps they got bad numbers, or the aircraft was not loaded the way the load sheet said it was...neither of which is an altogether impossible occurrence. It's happened to me more than once...so I have the thumb on the trim switches, just in case...

 

[enigma]

If they cleared the fence by 150 feet, then perhaps they got bad numbers, or the aircraft was not loaded the way the load sheet said it was...neither of which is an altogether impossible occurrence. It's happened to me more than once...so I have the thumb on the trim switches, just in case...

I don't have personal info about this particular take off, but my guess would parallel flx757's.

We rotate at the normal two and a half degrees per second. The aircraft usually lifts off at 8 degrees; if not, we stop rotation at ten and a half degrees in order to prevent a tail strike. I've never had to stop rotating in five years of flying the maddog. I have had to trim like crazy when the aircraft was obviously loaded differently than we were told that it was loaded.

I trust that the crew filled out an ASAP report.

enigma

 

[350DRIVER]

Certainly not 7-10 degrees.

The aircraft usually lifts off at 8 degrees;

this coming from a captain-

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[CaSyndrm]

Just a hot and heavy day. Get used to it for when it's your turn, sometimes you'll be amazed when your in the cockpit and watching the end of the runway quickly approaching after V1 but befor Vr.

 

[flx757]

this coming from a captain-

3 5 0

Just because the aircraft lifts off at approximately 8 degrees does not mean you stop rotating. You continue the rotation to the proper pitch attitude...without stopping at 8 degrees unless somthing out of the ordinary would cause you to do so. There is no "initial" pitch attitude. It is ONE rotation to whatever the flight director commands...and in the absence of a flight director, the approximate pitch attitude would be between 15-20 degrees depending upon a number of factors.

This coming from a Captain, instructor and check airman.

 

[Denizen]

Thanks

Thanks for the additonal information, without stooping to other peoples level. A breath of fresh air in these parts....

 

[FN FAL]

2.5-3 degree per second rotation..all in one move

to get to 20 degrees pitch up, that is 8 seconds. I have never seen anyone rotate for 8 seconds. That has to be a pre-flight record.

 

[414Flyer]

Just a hot and heavy day. Get used to it for when it's your turn, sometimes you'll be amazed when your in the cockpit and watching the end of the runway quickly approaching after V1 but befor Vr.

There was certainly a degree of pucker factor in the DC-4, taking off from a high desert airport, full of retardant and watching the end of the runway pass under the nose before the plane was off of the ground.

Long runways at lower elevations were not a problem. But a 6,000 ft strip at nearly 6,000 ft elevation, in an underpowered plane, well I am sure the takeoffs looked pretty interesting from the ground. They sure as heck did from the cockpit.

 

[njcapt]

to get to 20 degrees pitch up, that is 8 seconds. I have never seen anyone rotate for 8 seconds. That has to be a pre-flight record.

Well, that's exactly how it was done in the two large jets I've flown as Captain (737 and MD-80). After lift off you're still pitching up to hold the speed between V2 and V2+15. You will maintain that speed with around 15 degrees nose up in the 737 and 20 degrees in the MD-80. It takes from five to eight seconds to complete the rotation.

Maybe the Spirit dudes got a little heavy with the flex, I don't know. If you want to soil yourself on every takeoff, come to MDW. ATA recommends derates and assumed temperature takeoffs out of there, and we do them all the time. I don't even have to yank the seat cover out of my anus as a part of the climb check anymore (I guess after operating 737's out of there for six years you get used to seeing the rivets on the blast fence before lift off).

 

[enigma]

Just because the aircraft lifts off at approximately 8 degrees does not mean you stop rotating. You continue the rotation to the proper pitch attitude...without stopping at 8 degrees unless somthing out of the ordinary would cause you to do so. There is no "initial" pitch attitude. It is ONE rotation to whatever the flight director commands...and in the absence of a flight director, the approximate pitch attitude would be between 15-20 degrees depending upon a number of factors.

This coming from a Captain, instructor and check airman.

Ditto that flx. Sometimes when posting on this forum, I forget that every last detail must be spelled out.

I should have written: "We rotate at the normal two and a half degrees per second until the proper climb out angle of attack is reached(15 degrees or so, depending upon conditions). The aircraft usually lifts off at 8 degrees; if not, we stop rotation at ten and a half degrees in order to prevent a tail strike. In that situation, once lift off is achieved, the rotation is continued to 15 degrees or whatever pitch is commanded by the FD.

Yes, if done properly the rotation takes quite a bit of time. Shorter than my old "don't spill the bosses drink" Lear lift off, but longer than most would realize. Everyone should time theirs sometime, you'd probably be surprised at the time required from first pull til you get to proper climb attitude.

enigma

 

[Sunnfun]

I trust that the crew filled out an ASAP report.

What's an ASAP report?

Maybe the Spirit dudes got a little heavy with the flex, I don't know.

What does that mean, "heavy with the flex"?

And thanks to everybody for the explanations!

Cheers,
Sun'n Fun

 

[FN FAL]

What does that mean, "heavy with the flex"?

I wonder if that means using REDU power for take off?

 

[AAflyer]

350

How much time do you have in the 80? I guess JS time now counts as to experience on that particular aircraft?

I have noticed somehting over the past couple years of your posts, from PFT to airline mergers you have strong opinion about everything. You seem arrogant, and many times down right rude.

Not trying to flame you, or start some thread war, but what is up? Are you a mean person in general? For what it is worth, you seem young, you have a long career ahead of you, don't burn out early.

AA

 

[Singlecoil]

If you rotate properly, and not yank it right up to 20 degrees in 2 seconds, or something like that, you are not going to strike the tail. There is no more danger of a tail strike on an MD-80 than there is on a 737-900 or 757. It just requires proper procedures during the rotation.

I have found 4 MD's at the company you work for with scrapes on the tail skid in the last six months. Some people are WAY to aggressive with the rotation. I know they hammer it into you that it is not a two stage rotation, but perhaps they are overdoing it if people are scraping tails (and they are).

 

[AAflyer]

Back to the Basics,

Rotate it like you are flying a 727 and you can't go wrong

AA

 

[TurboS7]

All I know about an MD-88 was an observation from the JS pre 911. The temp was over 100F and we were jammed(every seat full) taking off out of LAS going to IAH. We rolled and rolled and rolled some more. Finally we roatated and rotated and rotated some more and wow, it flew. ....barely. I thought those runs were long on a 727, I must admit the MD-80 beat us.

 

[Groucho]

If you watch Amercian and Delta you will notice a much slower rotation than the book recomends or the engineers. The 80 is a real handfull in a V2 cut. If you agressively rotate and hang on to near V2 and lose an engine this airplane will just about go nuts. It will require a shove, not a push to get the nose down, and the rudder will be at the stop with the wing in a bank while you try to get the speed back to V2 or there abouts.

The "Mad Dog" decelerates very quickly from 20degrees of pitch and rotates about all three axis vigoursly in the process of engine loss. A V1 cut in this airplane is work but can be done well by a slower rotation and less agressive pitch input. The V2 cut is a reall handfull.

I think many pilots that fly this airplane have this in the back of thier minds when they fly this airplane. Additionally this airplane achieved its Stage 3 status partially because of this high pitch and aggressive climb profile.
The JT8D big fan series on the 80's didn't meet stage 3 requirements without agressive climb profiles for certification. That profile is not required for part 121 single engine certification.

 

[amaineiac]

Seeing the 727 Shuttle flights departing LGA was always interesting. I can't tell you how many times I've been on the ramp and seen those things roaring down the runway and swearing they were going swiming. Thankfully, they all got off the ground with runway remaining.....not much of it, but enough.