Spirit Furloughs

[big dog1]

Our MEC {mesa} Did the the same thing, gave us a piss poor TA,what a bunch of pansy!!! I guess ours passed, note it goes to the pilots , I hope it gets voted down. Anyways good luck

 

[pilotyip]

For Mr Flydeltjets

I left the Navy in 1977, I was 33 when I left the Navy and had 2500 hours most of it multi engine turbine PIC in a 100K + P-3, an ATP with a L-188 type, the majors told me my age and hours were out of ratio, back then being over 30 and getting a major interview was difficult, so I went to the largest 121 supplemental in the country Transamerica DC-8's, DC-10's B-747's and two years later they are selling airplanes and I am going backward in seniority, was that beyond my control? The early 80's was a bad time for getting aviation jobs, now hiring starts again I am 42, who gets hired, the 35 year old guys in reserve P-3 unit, less flight time, by the time my age is again attractive I have been promoted out of the Naval Reserve flying and the airlines tell me I am not current in big airplanes, go to work for a commuter, so I go to a work for a commuter, now it is 1991, no jobs again, is that in my control. I have had 11 jobs, 7 flying and 4 non-flying. I must be a decent pilot, I have have had no trouble in anything I checked out in, and the Navy does not make me squadron check airman if I don't have at least average Navy flying skills. Looking back I missed opportunities, made wrong choices, like should I have crossed the picket line at CAL in 1984, they were hiring P-3 guys from my reserve unit, My ALPA union buddies in my squadron said if I did that I would be labeled as a SCAB and end up my career flying for some non-sked at YIP. The guys who crossed the line have been Captains forever, good company, good money, and I am working for some non-shed at YIP. Were those circumstances beyond my control, I don't know? I moved on. I have made a great number of friends in this business and we still stay in touch. It was never about lifestyle, it was about being there in flight. I have never made "big money", in fact I have never made a good regional Capt.'s pay. Yea I would have liked to make more, but no complaints, I have been real lucky and it has been an adventure and I would do it all over again, particularly the military flying. I would definitely do all again it has been an adventure, I wanted to fly from the first time I saw a P-51 Mustang buzz the National Guard Armory. I built the models, took flight lessons and pursued getting a slot in the military from my first day of college. Joined the Navy, in 1966, flew all over the world, did neat things, landed on boats, saw Viet Nam. Married a great gal who supported me, raised the family, put up with unemployment, and never threatened to bail out. She can pack up a household in one day to move to the next job. We are all hostages to fortune (thank you E Gann), and do not have the control over our lives we would like to think we do. You Mr. Flydeltajets are a very fortunte person to be where you are, but there is also an element of luck that has nothing to do with your skill or desire.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Yip,

You are correct, there is some degree of luck to what I have achieved. However, there is also a lot of hard work to credit as well. I have had hurdles to overcome, like everyone else, and I am proud of how I responded, as I'm sure are you. I am also the son of an EAL pilot, and a former TWA pilot myself, so I know very well how fickle this industry can be. Even though I am currently furloughed, I remember and thank God every day for the blessings he has given me. I am not naive (or arrogant) enough to think that He didn't give me lots of help! You are correct, I am very fortunate.

Thank you for your service to this country, and for what it is worth, you still have your integrity by not scabbing. I hope that you weren't offended by my question, as no offense was intended. I was simply curious, as I have heard many people blame "circumstances beyond" their control when in fact their situation was due to circumstances very much within their control. My question was just that, a question. I appreciate the fact that you did not view it as an accusation. It certainly wasn't, as I know many who were denied their dreams because of factors they had nothing to do with. It almost happened to me, but that is a story for another day.

Thank you for your polite response, and I am glad to hear that you are happy with your choices and the experiences you have had. I wish you the best. !

 

[LAZYB]

pilotyip,

Keep on, keeping on - People better believe there is a lot of chance in this biz. Oh you need to prepare and train to be ready - to get lucky.

I'm looking at a desk now in a high rise.

Hostage to Fortune - good "connection".

It's all that d*mn butterfly on the other side of the world...

Good luck to you!

 

[Ty Webb]

Re: For Mr Flydeltjets

there is also an element of luck that has nothing to do with your skill or desire. [/B]

Excellent post. I don't always agree with you on this board, but that was one of the best posts I have read, and I couldn't agree with you more.

When I was in Indoc at AirTran I was amazed to hear the stories of how many companies people had worked at, only to have the company go under. EAL, Pan Am, Branniff, Emery, we had guys who had worked at all of them, some of the had been Check Airmen at them. All of them were great guys. And they here at AirTran now, working to make this a great place that we can retire from.

 

[enigma]

PilotYIP, sorry to hear that fate has been against you in your career. I believe that LUCK is the number one determining factor in career success.

Now to address your post in support of Spirit management. If you know NK as well as you infer, you know that our ALPA volunteers do try to work together with the company. Our scheduling committee spends countless hours trying to develop workable schedules. The MEC and especially its chair, have taken repeated flak from the membership because they are TOO willing to give the company an LOA any time the company wants one. Please check your facts next time
8N

 

[ifly4food]

You have yet to answer my question. What do you think would happen if we lowered our labor costs to the level of the low cost carriers. Could they sustain operations with similar costs against our size, network, ff program, alliances, schedule, deeper pockets, international route structure, etc? How do you think they would try to recapture their advantage?

I'll tell you what I think. I think that their mgt would come looking for concessions, and they would get them to "save the company." We would then once again be the higest paid. Will you once again opine that we should give concessions. Pattern bargaining works on the way down as much as it does on the way up. Perhaps that cycle is inevitable; I would hope that we at least explore all other options before we conceded. As a fellow professional pilot, I would have expected that you would feel the same.

I await your response to my scenario.

I think the LCCs will continue with their current business plan, and laugh at Delta for trying to copy them to play catch up.
Why should they change something that's already working for them?

The truth is that even if Delta lowered its wages to LCC levels, it still couldn't offer seats as cheaply. It's the very size, network, ff program, alliances, schedule, deeper pockets, international route structure, etc. you mention that is crippling the majors. They cannot operate as efficiently, and thus will still have a competetive disadvantage to the lean, mean LCCs.

No, I feel that it would not start a "bidding war to the bottom" as most union hardliners believe.

You know, I should say something here... In case you've started to wonder, I am a active ALPA member. I just don't drink anyone's Kool-Aid... mgt's or ALPA's.

A basic, widely accepted premise of collective bargaining is that the best course of action a union can take is to do what's best for the individual (the MEC) AND the collective group (all of ALPA). In the last 22 years since deregulation, too many MECs have focused on what's best for the individual and the collective has suffered.
It's been proven that doing what's best for the individual only is a flawed premise because in that case nobody wins... by nobel prize winning mathematician John Nash.

In my opinion, this is why ALPA and the industry is seeing the labor problems we face.

 

[Publishers]

salaries

Pilot salaries only maintain a false sense of stability now under parttern bargaining.

In the current state of things, and I mean over all the years since deregulation, we have a system that could best be called the yo yo salary system.

They go up[ due to the power of the unions as well as the weakness of the companies. When one side of negotiations is in a stronger position, you no longer have negotiations at all, just formal demand. When the results get to a certain level, they hit the wall, a down cycle is entered, etc, and concessions are give or a BK judge becomes the strongest party in negtotiations.

Salaries are then lowered effectively, or held where they are.

The guys that are lucky enough from a timing view point win regardless of their skills or deserving to. Others lose.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

IFF,

Your response makes it obvious to me that you have not read any 10k's in a while. Your assertion that the lcc's would still have a large cost advantage with the same wage scale is incorrect.

I invite you to visit the "investor relations" portion of various airlines and do the research yourself. The 10k's can usually be found under "SEC filings." You will see that do to our size, economies of scale, and fuel hedging program, we actually have a cost advantage on many items. However, the wages and benefits differential is what allows many of the lcc's to prosper from a cost advantage. It is all in black and white if you take the time to research it. If you don't feel like it, I have demonstrated it recently with airtran, though the numbers are similar for most lcc's. You can find my analysis under the thread "airline profitability". I hope that it will help.

I also don't drink the Kool-Aid from anyone. I take the time to research the issues myself (and not from the "Beautiful Mind" movie! ).

 

[Ty Webb]

You and DALPA both don't seem to get it, FDJ. Hourly wages are not the determining factor in our success and your losses, although the productivity is one of the components . . . It is an overall corporate culture of frugality and innovation in day-to-day operations that encourage savings.

One small example . . . I don't see you guys powering back over there, so you need more tugs, more tow-bars and more rampies. Your gate agents would never toss a bag, your ticket agents would probably never go help out at the gate, and I'll bet you have never pushed a wheelchair up the jetway.

The primary objective of any company is to make money. It is a business, not a charity. Most of us here realize that if the company makes money, we make money. If the company loses money, we lose money, and may possibly be out of a job. If the pilots strangle the company, you end up wearing the orange apron.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

I think those apples were tainted, because you are obviously high if you honestly think that Delta and not airtran is lowering the prices.

I also think that you will find that on the vast majority of your routes, we have the same or fewer amount of seats that we did before you came along. I think that you are grossly overestimating the amount of "dumping" going on and its effect. However, that is just my theory right now, I will have to research the numbers.

However, the fact remains that you are making money on fares that we are not due almost completely to the fact that your company pays its employees less than the competition. I have demonstrated through SEC filings that this is where the lion's share of the cost advantage comes from. I have yet to hear anyone refute the numbers.

You also act as if Delta is inviting losses. If they are dumping seats, it is because we must to counteract your cost advantage with our schedule advantage. Are you suggesting that we surrender market share rather than compete with all we have to fight a carrier invading our territory?

I will get back to you in a few days, hopefully with an analysis of before and after capacity on common routes (if I can find it and I don't lose interest! ). Suffice it to say, I firmly believe that the lowereing of prices can be attributed FAR more to the low cost carriers than the majors. In fact, I am shocked to even hear someone blame for keeping prices down! Usually we are blamed for the opposite!

 

[Ty Webb]

Sorry, FDJ, because I had edited my post to eliminate the part you were writing about . . . and then I saw your response.

Sure, it's true. DAL's response is to flood the same time of day with extra seats, seats that they sell below cost . . . hence the term "dumping".

See, we raise our prices as the planes fill up. If they never get beyond, say, 80% full, because DAL has dumped extra seats into he same time slot (at a loss) then we never sell enough to trigger a bump to the next fare code. . . .

If DAL only put as many seats into the market as they could sell at THEIR cost, then they would make money AND we would make money . . but that doesn't happen because DAL still thinks that they are protecting "their" market share. . . so they keep losing money and artificially keeping the price down.

Get it?

Also, in regards to labor costs, those numbers you see in the 10Q's and 10K's don;t tell the story, they tell the results. See my previous (edited) post.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Ty,

You changed your whole post on me.

#1. You are incorrect in your assessment of Delta employees. Unlike my former airlines, I have seen MANY times people pitching in to help out. And yes, I have pushed MANY a wheelchair up a jetway. The Delta Spirit is not completely dead, as evidenced by the repeated refusal of a union from many workgroups on this property. No airline has a monopoly on employee love for the company. I love my airline, I have dreamed of it since I was a child, and even though I have my differences with current mgt on many issues, I have ALWAYS done all that I could to help the company...And my attitude is common in every department.

#2. If your innovations are so successful, why is "Employee wages and Benefit" the only expense that you are lower than Delta? Why do we have a higher revenue/employee (source: Yahoo marketwatch)? I glad that you believe in your airline, and I hope that none of us have to wear the orange apron. However, I think that you are being naive if you think that your wages and benefits are not the reason that you are profitable and we are not.

#3. I think that you will see that demonstated if we were to take a paycut. Granted, we would not accept a cut to your levels, but if the wages and benefits were equal, I don't think that it would be Delta employees being sized for that apron. While that might be good for Delta, it would not be good for airline employees. I have mentioned before that concessions may be needed. I know that the survival of the company is paramount. However, just as you caution about asking the company for too much, we should be careful that we don't give them too much, either. The company is important; So is the career. The effects on both need to be considered, and you can be sure that we will do so.

Fly Safe

 

[Ty Webb]

I don't have the time to assemble a blow-by-blow comparison of our expenses versus yours . . . . and I don't need to. Common sense says that if the difference in our flight crews hourly costs and yours is not the difference. . If I am making $51. and the Capt is making $120., then how much of a savings per hour are we talking here? Maybe $150.00/hr? What's that- one more seat sold on your MD80?

The numbers you are looking at in the 10K are aggregate numbers. You can't just look at it and say, "Hey- they are paying their employees less, that's why they are making money". Our pilots are also flying more block hours compared to credit time. Our rampies are parking more planes per hour, etc. We don't have any 15 yr F/A's and we don't have ACARS, nor the other bells and whistles. We don't sponsor the Olympics, we don't have a stadium named for us, and we aren't the Official Airline of Anything (well, maybe the Jerry Springer Show).

We provide transportation. We make money, we are employed. We are growing. We are here to stay.

If your company realized that and quit dumping seats, they could go back to charging a price that they can actually make money at, and we would then all be making money.

Otherwise, what they are doing is "protecting marketshare" in a segment of the market that they can't make money in, anyway. We are not going to go away, so they are, as the old saw goes, losing money on every flight, but "making it up on volume".

Hmmmmnnnn!

 

[Counselair]

To all those that think pilots are over paid and taking pay cuts are the way to save an airline...

I'm currently on my sixth airline.

I've been R.I.F'd from the Air Force.

My flight school and went out of business from under me.

I've been through bankruptcy at two airlines.

I've been furloughed three times.

I've been working on this "career" for 13 years.

Last year was the first time I ever came close to six figures.

Prior to that the most I ever made was forty K.

I couldn't even guess what my average income would be over the years.

I now, gratefully, work for the largest airline in the world.

I would have to work alot of years at six figures to make back what the public thinks I've been making.

Don't rely on management.. make every dime you can when you can. You'll need it while waiting for your next job. I've had alot of great jobs but one lousy career. I'm still thankful for all the opporunities I've gotten and those I've made happen.

By the way...last week my paycheck was $450 dollars on unemployment and I'll probably not be recalled for many years to come.

Be proud of what you do and what you've earned. You deserve every penny of it.

Counselair