Spirit Furloughs

[enigma]

As I'm sure most are aware, Spirit Airlines has 22 pilots on furlough. The furlough was assumed by most to be a "hardball" tactic in the ongoing contract negtiations. WRONG. Apparently the company is in more trouble than we all thought. Our MEC just signed off on a TA that gave management most everything management wanted, yet the furlough has not been rescinded. Not good news to our furloughees, downgrades, and any pilot who was looking to Spirit for a job.

The moral to this story,.........poor management is responible for poor performance. In Spirits case, poor performance certainly isn't due to overpaid pilots. Spirit is having trouble even though they pay RJ wages to MD80 pilots. So, to those of you who think that overpaid pilots are the problem in our industry, think again.

regards,
8N

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Enigma,

I am sorry to hear that you did not achieve all of your goals for this TA. We are obviously in a difficult time for negotiations.

What do you figure the odds are that the TA passes?

Good luck, whatever happens.

 

[ifly4food]

Enigma,
I was talking to a jumpseating Spirit pilot the other day who told me about the situation you described above.
He said the MEC was moving to ratify the TA without putting it to a vote. If this is true, I don't see how it's legal under ALPA's C&BLs. He said there's a lot of disatisfaction with the MEC's actions and with the TA.

Can you shed some light on this?

In other discussion...

The moral to this story,.........poor management is responible for poor performance. In Spirits case, poor performance certainly isn't due to overpaid pilots. Spirit is having trouble even though they pay RJ wages to MD80 pilots. So, to those of you who think that overpaid pilots are the problem in our industry, think again.

I think your situation proves just the opposite. Clearly you guys deserve more than "RJ wages" (yeah, that's such an evil thing, right?) but why should a Delta pilot make 5 times as much to fly an MD80 than you do? Does he work that much harder than you? Does he have that much more responsibility?

 

[DC9stick]

The chances of the TA being approved are fairly good. The MEC is recomending it by a unanimous vote (6-0) The MEC and nego. comm. are going to hold road shows in the very near future. The TA has not been diseminated to the pilot group yet. It is going to a vote by all qualified members of Spirit ALPA.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

I think your situation proves just the opposite. Clearly you guys deserve more than "RJ wages" (yeah, that's such an evil thing, right?) but why should a Delta pilot make 5 times as much to fly an MD80 than you do? Does he work that much harder than you? Does he have that much more responsibility?

You are asking the question wrong. You should consider that Spirit's airplanes are not 5 times easier to fly than ours. Why should they be paid 5 times less than we?

You have asked a similar question on a couple of threads now, and I have to tell you, it is scary. And yes, rj wages are an evil thing. The airplane is no smaller than our old DC-9-10's, yet you are paid pennies on the dollar in comparison. That pay disparity, while it is accepted now, has led to outsourced flying all over the country, and led to far more career regional pilots who will make FAR less over a career than their mainline counterparts. So, yes, the effect that the spread of "rj wages" thoughout the industry has been, to use your word, "evil".

P.S.
MEC ratification (if they were to use it) would not violate ALPA's C&BL's. While it is not common in the event of contract ratification, it is sometimes practiced, and it is legal. Even so, I don't like it, and I am glad that this TA is going to a vote.

 

[Midnight Mike]

The moral to this story,.........poor management is responsible for poor performance. In Spirits case, poor performance certainly isn't due to overpaid pilots. Spirit is having trouble even though they pay RJ wages to MD80 pilots. So, to those of you who think that overpaid pilots are the problem in our industry, think again.
_________________________________________________

I would like to reply to this one, with an example.
At TWA they had a great contract with a foreign airline, Nippon Cargo Airlines. For every 747 pilot that TWA would lease to NCA, NCA would pay double at the highest pay rate possible & then 10% on top of that, regardless of seniority. It was possible for a very junior F/O flying for NCA to make more money than a senior pilot flying for TWA, same equipment. After management (a bean counter) negotiated this deal, it was then turned over to the union, due to an agreement with the union. The VP who took over this deal was a pilot, yes, management can be comprised of pilots as well. The morale to this story is that when we talk about management not going a "good job" we could be speaking about a pilot. Sometimes pilots are their own worst enemies.

By the TWA blew the deal, but before they lost the deal, the person responsible for losing this deal, negotiated himself to be the last pilot hired for NCA, not bad that he took care of himself.



Mike

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Mike,

Were you a scheduler at TWA?

If so, you guys did a great job. I was always amazed at how friendly and professional you were, even when I wanted to kill you for waking me up at 4 am!

Thanks for a great job. I wrote a letter once commending you guys, but never heard a word back... Hopefully someone got it.

 

[Midnight Mike]

I was a scheduler for Nippon Cargo Airlines, my ship mate
was Frank Personelli is that names rings a bell. Making pilots up in the dead of night was my speciaility, ha! SORRY


[email protected]

 

[PCL_128]

Originally posted by ifly4food I think your situation proves just the opposite. Clearly you guys deserve more than "RJ wages" (yeah, that's such an evil thing, right?) but why should a Delta pilot make 5 times as much to fly an MD80 than you do? Does he work that much harder than you? Does he have that much more responsibility?

You really don't get it, do you? The problem isn't that DAL pilots are making too much money. In fact, although the pilots at DAL are currently the highest paid in the industry, they are still making less than pilots were 20-30 years ago(corrected for inflation). The real problem here is that Spirit pilots aren't making anywhere near enough for the job they are doing. Nor are JB, AirTran, or SWA pilots.

ALPA has always used "pattern bargaining" in it's contract negotiations. Dave Benhke<sp>, the founder of ALPA, called it "jacking up the house." Instead, you want to do the exact opposite. You want to cut the stilts out from under the house that ALPA has worked so hard for the past 75 years to "jack up."

Where would you have it stop? If DAL, UAL, AMR, AAA, etc.. all accepted pay concessions to bring themselves down to LCC contract rates, how do you think the LCC's would respond? I believe it was FDJ that pointed out earlier that SWA, JB, etc.. would have demand concessions from it's pilots in order to remain competitive. After SWA pilots accept the concessions, should the DAL pilots again agree to lower pay to keep everything even? From your backwards logic it would seem so. Afterall, if the SWA pilot agreed to concessions to make the most senior pilot make 100k, why should the DAL pilot make 140k? You seem to be proposing that we actively participate in the "race to the bottom" rather than fight it. That's a very scary proposition.

 

[pilotyip]

Out of line

There are probably 10's of 1,000's of us out here, who have been in the flying business for our entire lives, and due to circumstances beyond our control never hit the big time. We have never made 100K per year, and feel the jobs at JB, SWA, AirTran are dream jobs. There is nothing special about skill it takes to be a pilot, anyone with certain level of intelligence and desire can do it. So to look at yourselves as someone who is truly special like a Doctor or successful business person is stroll down the lane of unreality. You can be replaced by any ATP, at another airline who does it cheaper and like JB better.

 

[pilotyip]

To enigma

Spirit management needs your help, get your buddies to step forward and save the airline from its management, tell them what they have to do save themselves from their bad management. It is easy to blame management, like everyone on this board is so fond of doing. But when management does what it has to save the airline, they are berated as bad. You guys are all so smart, step up to the plate and give the advice that is needed to save the airline industry. Lets hear the good ideas.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

What were those circumstances beyond your control. I am not trying to be rude, because there are a few people who truly did not have control over their hiring (medical, etc.).

I do find, however, that many people blame "circustances beyond their control" when in fact they just did not do what was necessary to get hired.

I mean no disrespect, and I offer no judgement. I am simply curious to what constitutes "beyond control".

P.S.

Very few of us feel like we are irreplacable. We strive, however, to achieve the levels of remuneration of which this profession is worthy, and once our group achieves them, we try to keep them. This is one of the reasons our jobs have been described (by yourself) as "dream jobs". I know in my case, I dreamed of Delta since I was a little boy. (actually, I started dreaming about EAL, but my EAL dad kept telling me that Delta was the place to be. I hope that we (pilots and mgt) can return to that time).

 

[ifly4food]

You really don't get it, do you? The problem isn't that DAL pilots are making too much money. In fact, although the pilots at DAL are currently the highest paid in the industry, they are still making less than pilots were 20-30 years ago(corrected for inflation). The real problem here is that Spirit pilots aren't making anywhere near enough for the job they are doing. Nor are JB, AirTran, or SWA pilots.

ALPA has always used "pattern bargaining" in it's contract negotiations. Dave Benhke<sp>, the founder of ALPA, called it "jacking up the house." Instead, you want to do the exact opposite. You want to cut the stilts out from under the house that ALPA has worked so hard for the past 75 years to "jack up."

Where would you have it stop? If DAL, UAL, AMR, AAA, etc.. all accepted pay concessions to bring themselves down to LCC contract rates, how do you think the LCC's would respond? I believe it was FDJ that pointed out earlier that SWA, JB, etc.. would have demand concessions from it's pilots in order to remain competitive. After SWA pilots accept the concessions, should the DAL pilots again agree to lower pay to keep everything even? From your backwards logic it would seem so. Afterall, if the SWA pilot agreed to concessions to make the most senior pilot make 100k, why should the DAL pilot make 140k? You seem to be proposing that we actively participate in the "race to the bottom" rather than fight it. That's a very scary proposition.

They have trained you well. Now start thinking for yourself instead of like a parrot.

Now consider that maybe there's a middle ground and salaries will fall to more reasonable and sustainable levels. Right now, the bottom is too low and the top is too high. This disparity feeds itself as they justify each other. Management pays the same amount by robbing the left hand to pay the right hand. This is why you and I make so little.

My question is why a pilot deserves to make more than an surgeon, lawyer, or CEO of a small company. Why can't a pilot live off of $150,000 a year?
The union mentality of the 20th century is outdated. We don't need to continuously "raise the bar" for fear of being undercut. Salaries have risen to ridiculous, unsustainable, and unjustifiable levels relative to other industries. While I realize that labor costs aren't what's killing this industry, I call for labor to wake up because it isn't helping. We need to find a fair, livable wage for pilots that will enable us to have a good life and enable our companies to make money.

This is an equalibrium and it is what will happen when we stop fighting to "jack up the house".

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

IFF,

I fear that you are naive if you think that salaries will stay at a certain acceptable level without pattern bargaining.

P.S.

We are being undercut EVERY DAY. THAT is why you are paid so little, because there are thousands of people who would do your job for less. The only way to stop them is to stay strong as a union. If you are counting on market forces or the goodwill of mgt to keep salaries at what you consider acceptable levels, I think that you are being, again, naive.

You have yet to answer my question. What do you think would happen if we lowered our labor costs to the level of the low cost carriers. Could they sustain operations with similar costs against our size, network, ff program, alliances, schedule, deeper pockets, international route structure, etc? How do you think they would try to recapture their advantage?

I'll tell you what I think. I think that their mgt would come looking for concessions, and they would get them to "save the company." We would then once again be the higest paid. Will you once again opine that we should give concessions. Pattern bargaining works on the way down as much as it does on the way up. Perhaps that cycle is inevitable; I would hope that we at least explore all other options before we conceded. As a fellow professional pilot, I would have expected that you would feel the same.

I await your response to my scenario.

 

[Draginass]

Ifly -
Do you REALLY think $150k a year is too much to pay an experienced pilot living in Boston or NYC and flying a 150 million dollar aircraft with a couple hundred people aboard? Do you have ANY idea of what other professionals in that stature make in those cities? Has working for commuter airlines so long made you accept managements drumbeat that your skill and training is worth so little?

 

[big dog1]

Our MEC {mesa} Did the the same thing, gave us a piss poor TA,what a bunch of pansy!!! I guess ours passed, note it goes to the pilots , I hope it gets voted down. Anyways good luck

 

[pilotyip]

For Mr Flydeltjets

I left the Navy in 1977, I was 33 when I left the Navy and had 2500 hours most of it multi engine turbine PIC in a 100K + P-3, an ATP with a L-188 type, the majors told me my age and hours were out of ratio, back then being over 30 and getting a major interview was difficult, so I went to the largest 121 supplemental in the country Transamerica DC-8's, DC-10's B-747's and two years later they are selling airplanes and I am going backward in seniority, was that beyond my control? The early 80's was a bad time for getting aviation jobs, now hiring starts again I am 42, who gets hired, the 35 year old guys in reserve P-3 unit, less flight time, by the time my age is again attractive I have been promoted out of the Naval Reserve flying and the airlines tell me I am not current in big airplanes, go to work for a commuter, so I go to a work for a commuter, now it is 1991, no jobs again, is that in my control. I have had 11 jobs, 7 flying and 4 non-flying. I must be a decent pilot, I have have had no trouble in anything I checked out in, and the Navy does not make me squadron check airman if I don't have at least average Navy flying skills. Looking back I missed opportunities, made wrong choices, like should I have crossed the picket line at CAL in 1984, they were hiring P-3 guys from my reserve unit, My ALPA union buddies in my squadron said if I did that I would be labeled as a SCAB and end up my career flying for some non-sked at YIP. The guys who crossed the line have been Captains forever, good company, good money, and I am working for some non-shed at YIP. Were those circumstances beyond my control, I don't know? I moved on. I have made a great number of friends in this business and we still stay in touch. It was never about lifestyle, it was about being there in flight. I have never made "big money", in fact I have never made a good regional Capt.'s pay. Yea I would have liked to make more, but no complaints, I have been real lucky and it has been an adventure and I would do it all over again, particularly the military flying. I would definitely do all again it has been an adventure, I wanted to fly from the first time I saw a P-51 Mustang buzz the National Guard Armory. I built the models, took flight lessons and pursued getting a slot in the military from my first day of college. Joined the Navy, in 1966, flew all over the world, did neat things, landed on boats, saw Viet Nam. Married a great gal who supported me, raised the family, put up with unemployment, and never threatened to bail out. She can pack up a household in one day to move to the next job. We are all hostages to fortune (thank you E Gann), and do not have the control over our lives we would like to think we do. You Mr. Flydeltajets are a very fortunte person to be where you are, but there is also an element of luck that has nothing to do with your skill or desire.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Yip,

You are correct, there is some degree of luck to what I have achieved. However, there is also a lot of hard work to credit as well. I have had hurdles to overcome, like everyone else, and I am proud of how I responded, as I'm sure are you. I am also the son of an EAL pilot, and a former TWA pilot myself, so I know very well how fickle this industry can be. Even though I am currently furloughed, I remember and thank God every day for the blessings he has given me. I am not naive (or arrogant) enough to think that He didn't give me lots of help! You are correct, I am very fortunate.

Thank you for your service to this country, and for what it is worth, you still have your integrity by not scabbing. I hope that you weren't offended by my question, as no offense was intended. I was simply curious, as I have heard many people blame "circumstances beyond" their control when in fact their situation was due to circumstances very much within their control. My question was just that, a question. I appreciate the fact that you did not view it as an accusation. It certainly wasn't, as I know many who were denied their dreams because of factors they had nothing to do with. It almost happened to me, but that is a story for another day.

Thank you for your polite response, and I am glad to hear that you are happy with your choices and the experiences you have had. I wish you the best. !

 

[LAZYB]

pilotyip,

Keep on, keeping on - People better believe there is a lot of chance in this biz. Oh you need to prepare and train to be ready - to get lucky.

I'm looking at a desk now in a high rise.

Hostage to Fortune - good "connection".

It's all that d*mn butterfly on the other side of the world...

Good luck to you!

 

[Ty Webb]

Re: For Mr Flydeltjets

there is also an element of luck that has nothing to do with your skill or desire. [/B]

Excellent post. I don't always agree with you on this board, but that was one of the best posts I have read, and I couldn't agree with you more.

When I was in Indoc at AirTran I was amazed to hear the stories of how many companies people had worked at, only to have the company go under. EAL, Pan Am, Branniff, Emery, we had guys who had worked at all of them, some of the had been Check Airmen at them. All of them were great guys. And they here at AirTran now, working to make this a great place that we can retire from.