• NC Software is having a Black Friday Sale Event thru December 4th on Logbook Pro, APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook, Cirrus Elite Binders, and more. Use coupon code BF2020 at checkout to redeem 15% off your purchase. Click here to shop now.
  • NC Software is proud to announce the release of APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook version 10.0. Click here to view APDL on the Apple App store and install now.

Southwest training

JetFumes

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 14, 2005
Posts
273
Total Time
9300
I heard a story about a new hire dude who was a little older who got sent home after failing IOE. This is the second time I have heard of this happening. What gives with the training over there? Is it really that difficult. I heard they hire for attitude not aptitude. Are they trying to get you,i.e. stump the chump? Anyone have any thoughts.
 

StopNTSing

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 16, 2003
Posts
715
Total Time
9500+
They do hire for attitude, and that's probably what got him canned. Coming to the training center with an "...well, that's not how we did it at Brand X..." attitude is the most serious threat to your surviving new-hire training & IOE. Some guys do wash-out for plain-old lousy flying abilities (but not before the company has provided a LOT of extra sims, IOE flights, etc. as needed). It's the furthest from stump the chump I've ever seen. If you've survived any other 121 or military training program and are reasonably current, you shouldn't have any issues....unless you're a know-it-all d*ckhead, then lookout.
 

FADEC

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 15, 2002
Posts
129
Total Time
9000 +
I heard a story about a new hire dude who was a little older who got sent home after failing IOE. This is the second time I have heard of this happening. What gives with the training over there? Is it really that difficult. I heard they hire for attitude not aptitude. Are they trying to get you,i.e. stump the chump? Anyone have any thoughts.

There was a new hire in my JetBlue class who was let go after IOE. So, its probably more common than you think. I could ask the same question, what gives at JB.
 

Snaab

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 6, 2005
Posts
372
Total Time
7k
I work for a smaller regional airline. Sometimes, there is a notion (here, at least) that a questionable apple can get through IOE and then they'll settle down and be OK after a few weeks of flying the line. These people usually have a good attitude, but don't have sharp cockpit skills. I can tell you that 3 out of 4 never become a true asset to the cockpit after 'doing a few weeks on the line.' No one will ever admit it, but when we were in need of filling seats, this notion was very prevelent and puts an unnecessarily large onus on the Captain. (The worst part was that some of the 'bad apples' would get passed around to diff't check airman till one signed them off. Great idea- not.)
 

maxblast72

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 5, 2006
Posts
931
Total Time
9000+
We had one at Airtran. Older military guy with great attitude just couldn't get up to Part 121 quickturn speed. Everyone is a little behind for the first few months but there is a limit to what they will allow. I heard he had logged close to 100 hours of IOE with several check airman before they let him go.
 

JetFumes

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 14, 2005
Posts
273
Total Time
9300
They do hire for attitude, and that's probably what got him canned. Coming to the training center with an "...well, that's not how we did it at Brand X..." attitude is the most serious threat to your surviving new-hire training & IOE. Some guys do wash-out for plain-old lousy flying abilities (but not before the company has provided a LOT of extra sims, IOE flights, etc. as needed). It's the furthest from stump the chump I've ever seen. If you've survived any other 121 or military training program and are reasonably current, you shouldn't have any issues....unless you're a know-it-all d*ckhead, then lookout.


Thats what I suspected, and yes we have had this happen at JetBlue, but its rare.
 

inline

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 26, 2001
Posts
1,320
Total Time
19000+
They do hire for attitude, and that's probably what got him canned. Coming to the training center with an "...well, that's not how we did it at Brand X..." attitude is the most serious threat to your surviving new-hire training & IOE. Some guys do wash-out for plain-old lousy flying abilities (but not before the company has provided a LOT of extra sims, IOE flights, etc. as needed). It's the furthest from stump the chump I've ever seen. If you've survived any other 121 or military training program and are reasonably current, you shouldn't have any issues....unless you're a know-it-all d*ckhead, then lookout.

" Civilian puke.........heavy on the puke."
Are you embarrassed by your civilian background?
 

StopNTSing

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 16, 2003
Posts
715
Total Time
9500+
" Civilian puke.........heavy on the puke."
Are you embarrassed by your civilian background?

Nope...just a little self-deprecating humor, that's all. I got over myself a long time ago. :)
 

PSL

Well-known member
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
185
Total Time
20K >
Well ... this captain has not flown with a FO that gives me a moment of pause.

As with all, to each according to their gifts, skill and efforts.

My style is to let them find their comfort level with as little intervention as possible. I would rather have them throw the gear or extend flaps early; realize it and look over and say something to the effect ... Well that was a little too early ... then to destroy their confidence by delaying a gear or flap extension.

FOs rarely press the field and generally fly more conservatively than captains (opinion).

If I have to get involved while they are flying it usually goes this way:

1) I state ... tell me what you are thinking (this normally opens the lines of communications and provides a graceful exit for one of us if we are pushing it)

2) Provide an alternative plan (more conservative) we can both live with if things are getting tight.

3) And as a last resort ... I claim to be not as skilled / smart / comfortable and ask the FO to dumb things down to my level.

I learned this from a wise Check Airman who was my adult supervision on the MD-11.

So far ... it has served me well.
 

Cornelius

Where's Pancakes House
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
475
Total Time
7000
wtf r u talking about?
 

Cardinal

Of The Kremlin
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
2,308
Total Time
K's
I work for a smaller regional airline. Sometimes, there is a notion (here, at least) that a questionable apple can get through IOE and then they'll settle down and be OK after a few weeks of flying the line. These people usually have a good attitude, but don't have sharp cockpit skills. I can tell you that 3 out of 4 never become a true asset to the cockpit after 'doing a few weeks on the line.' No one will ever admit it, but when we were in need of filling seats, this notion was very prevelent and puts an unnecessarily large onus on the Captain. (The worst part was that some of the 'bad apples' would get passed around to diff't check airman till one signed them off. Great idea- not.)

Big +1 on that. Those that prove themselves to be an ongoing (not just one isolated issue) nightmare to the training department generally cause nightmares on the line.
 

climbhappy

ex pat
Joined
Aug 11, 2002
Posts
2,159
Total Time
11000
PSL
i couldn't agree with you more. when a guy makes a mistake as I have. it is far better if the captain says nothing and he knows and I know he or I f'ed. up. that is where the learning takes place. I've been flying with new guys and unless they're doing something non standard or unsafe I don't say a word. ... my friend FO slightly missed a crossing restriction..too close to call from a radar screen... he knew it. why should I break CRM since he knows he muffed it.. you may disagree, but every guy i treat like that becomes a great FO and CRM is optimum.
 

TDK90

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 20, 2003
Posts
189
Total Time
6k
Well ... this captain has not flown with a FO that gives me a moment of pause.

As with all, to each according to their gifts, skill and efforts.

My style is to let them find their comfort level with as little intervention as possible. I would rather have them throw the gear or extend flaps early; realize it and look over and say something to the effect ... Well that was a little too early ... then to destroy their confidence by delaying a gear or flap extension.

FOs rarely press the field and generally fly more conservatively than captains (opinion).

If I have to get involved while they are flying it usually goes this way:

1) I state ... tell me what you are thinking (this normally opens the lines of communications and provides a graceful exit for one of us if we are pushing it)

2) Provide an alternative plan (more conservative) we can both live with if things are getting tight.

3) And as a last resort ... I claim to be not as skilled / smart / comfortable and ask the FO to dumb things down to my level.

I learned this from a wise Check Airman who was my adult supervision on the MD-11.

So far ... it has served me well.

Best thing I've read on FI ever, thanks for posting.
 

Benjamin Dover

Well-known member
Joined
May 5, 2006
Posts
299
Total Time
10K +
They do hire for attitude, and that's probably what got him canned. Coming to the training center with an "...well, that's not how we did it at Brand X..." attitude is the most serious threat to your surviving new-hire training & IOE. Some guys do wash-out for plain-old lousy flying abilities (but not before the company has provided a LOT of extra sims, IOE flights, etc. as needed). It's the furthest from stump the chump I've ever seen. If you've survived any other 121 or military training program and are reasonably current, you shouldn't have any issues....unless you're a know-it-all d*ckhead, then lookout.

True statement. Also true is that "how we did it at Brand X" was often better than Southwest's procedures. But, many here - including a couple of my Navy buds - who have never flown anywhere else refuse to entertain this concept.

Those of us that came from other airlines don't claim to "know it all", but we do know what was clearly better if anyone ever cared to get our input. But, sadly, "we're doing just fine the way we've always done it" is generally the culture here. Maybe upcoming VNAV/RNP will the beginning of some change.
 

Bob_Sacamano

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 19, 2005
Posts
394
Total Time
Enough
I thought newhire training at SWA was very fair. Our class had the dubious distinction of having a guy who was 1 of only 2 not to make it through training last year...out of what, 600 guys?

Like the others have said, our guy had a really poor attitude. He claimed to have come from a bizjet background at DAL with 3000 PIC in a Lear. We all came to the conclusion that he'd grossly padded his logbook because it was obvious he'd never cracked an AIM in his life, and had the flying skills of "an igneous rock".

The attitude portion came in that when the rest of us had all passed our checkrides, he still didn't know his limitations, Memory Items, Standard Calls, or Flows. SWA bent over backwards trying to get him through. But even after several extra sim periods, he spent all of his spare time on the phone cussing out his former employer wondering where his last check was, or talking about the renovations he was doing to his house. The sad part is that he was only 27 or 28. If he would have taken it seriously, he could have had a wonderful career. But instead, he pissed it away, and claims that SWA screwed him over. Not even close...
 
Top