Southwest Line on Credit?

[freightdogfred]

Fred this will happen no matter how the DRC plays out just by the nature of the ISL. AS WN capts retire in 2015 the resultant upgrade classes will be all AAI pilots re upgrading The vacancy bids at WN are very cyclical when there is no growth as in in any given base and seat plus a few one month then minus a few the next. What will happen is on "plus" months in ATL it will be senior AAI guys coming in and on "minus" month in ATL it will be junior WN guys pushed out. This is already happening on the WN F/O side with the AAI transitions.

By the very fact the whole list is so skewed in WN's favor, the really senior captains at FL will not have the horsepower to be pushing anyone out of atlanta. Not to mention the fact most of em are so old they fart dust, an ain't gonna be around much past 2015 anyhows. Be interesting to see how many WN captains above #1500 bid into ATL, that's where the rubber will meet the road. Seems i see more an more of them riding our crew bus.

 

[waveflyer]

So, the argument is WN pilots are happy bc we get 1 more base? We had nine. Coast to coast, north to south. There are a few who are happy about that. So much for my superlative arguments. So there are some-. Your argument would hold more weight if your fortress hub was Nashville.
As far as quicker upgrades- I'm still pissed, bc all the junior FO's got 200 more AT's above us between the 1st and 2nd lists- while the angry FO crowd got a little bit quicker upgrade, I'll have 200 pilots senior to me the rest of my career-
Lesson learned on not backing other groups- stick to what affects you. (Should've learned that from the age 65 debate.

And hey phred, I'm Irish. Cursing doesn't make me either angry or classless. Just makes me irish(!)

And as far as skewed goes- please. SWA was a job that took years longer to get. That argument just doesn't fly to those of us who wanted to work at SWA and stuck with it until we got it instead of settling for an AT job I could've had a while back. That's reality. You just piss yourself off if you don't accept the FACT that AT was an easier job to get with lesser qualifications-
Good on you. Not an indictment on flying abilities. Not an indictment on those of you who always wanted to work for AT for various reasons. But it IS a seniority argument.

I've said it before- GK and CM hired arbitrators, and SLI specialists to formulate their list to what could be the reasonable outcome after arbitration. They submitted that list- they didn't just throw names in a hat at a BBQ-

We would have had a very similar list, years later had this been drug out to arbi-

So just get over it

 

[freightdogfred]

So, the argument is WN pilots are happy bc we get 1 more base? We had nine. Coast to coast, north to south. There are a few who are happy about that. So much for my superlative arguments. So there are some-. Your argument would hold more weight if your fortress hub was Nashville.
As far as quicker upgrades- I'm still pissed, bc all the junior FO's got 200 more AT's above us between the 1st and 2nd lists- while the angry FO crowd got a little bit quicker upgrade, I'll have 200 pilots senior to me the rest of my career-
Lesson learned on not backing other groups- stick to what affects you. (Should've learned that from the age 65 debate.

And hey phred, I'm Irish. Cursing doesn't make me either angry or classless. Just makes me irish(!)

And as far as skewed goes- please. SWA was a job that took years longer to get. That argument just doesn't fly to those of us who wanted to work at SWA and stuck with it until we got it instead of settling for an AT job I could've had a while back. That's reality. You just piss yourself off if you don't accept the FACT that AT was an easier job to get with lesser qualifications-
Good on you. Not an indictment on flying abilities. Not an indictment on those of you who always wanted to work for AT for various reasons. But it IS a seniority argument.

I've said it before- GK and CM hired arbitrators, and SLI specialists to formulate their list to what could be the reasonable outcome after arbitration. They submitted that list- they didn't just throw names in a hat at a BBQ-

We would have had a very similar list, years later had this been drug out to arbi-

So just get over it

I have never agreed with any of your arguments. I still don't now. My post was merely a rebuttal to Ghettobeechjet's post that FL upgrades will push WN ca's out of an ATL base, and nothing to do with your consistent ramblings about job desirability. So, I'll go have some more beer, you go pound some more salt up your azz, ok?

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

By the very fact the whole list is so skewed in WN's favor, the really senior captains at FL will not have the horsepower to be pushing anyone out of atlanta. Not to mention the fact most of em are so old they fart dust, an ain't gonna be around much past 2015 anyhows. Be interesting to see how many WN captains above #1500 bid into ATL, that's where the rubber will meet the road. Seems i see more an more of them riding our crew bus.

Fred you do realize we are discussing a couple hundred slots out of 8000? Fact is that the vast majority of SWA Capts senior to all the AAI guys already live in base mostly in TX or AZ and are very close to retirement themselves. I of course could be wrong but I doubt many in that group will feel a burning need to move to ATL. Just based on time and demographics ATL will be a mostly AAI domicile in both seats until well after I retire.

 

[Amberjack]

With a gun to their heads! DH

Dude, go Rob another 7-11 and
claim that the clerk just handed you
the money.

Clueless!

If you got so "screwed" then you wouldn't mind the same list with the JetBlue guys then, right?

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

If you got so "screwed" then you wouldn't mind the same list with the JetBlue guys then, right?

A lot of us would treat others the way we'd like to be treated and support them in obtaining a fair and equitable list which would be much better than what we ended up with.

 

[waveflyer]

A lot of us would treat others the way we'd like to be treated and support them in obtaining a fair and equitable list which would be much better than what we ended up with.

Really? You're going to lobby to have more of their guys above you? And the not so subtle clue in your post is that you didn't get "fair and equitable"? Is that what you're "implying"?

No longer sugarcoating it
AT, You got BETTER than fair and equitable seniority. By a couple of years DOH- I'm not crazy, you didn't all deserve to be stapled, IMO- but 2.5 average off your doh was too generous- should've been 4-5 at least. Especially since we ended up dumping the 71's. At least. Because you didn't bring your own toys to the party. 2/3's are a big liability. im tired of sugarcoating that- and i'll pull the same line ive heard on these forums from the AT Internet tough guys- every pilot ive run into at swa has told me the same thing or more extreme- ie: stapled- so keep on with that angry line- we outnumber you by a LOT, talk pissed here on FI, knock yourself out, but I wouldn't advise trying it on line- and as for JB- my career can't handle us buying another YOUNG pilot group and being so generous-

Fine, you choose to go to the young, growing carrier- that does NOT entitle you to the same quick seniority & upgrade you got at the upstart, when you get bought by the larger more established airline. You don't get to define fair and equitable as being a captain the rest of your life, when if you'd been hired anywhere else, you'd be nowhere close.

JB= another airline most swa pilots bypassed years before in pursuit of the job we actually wanted. And another airline that donated more than a few pilots to the SWA ranks AFTER THEY'D BEEN THERE FOR YEARS.

It's capitalism- there are a lot of risks going to the smaller growing carrier- risk#1 you fail and go under. START OVER. At least there's no sli controversy. Just after that risk appears unlikely comes Risk #2 - you get bought.

If you get bought don't pretend like you get to keep all that quick seniority- or pretend that you didn't have an easier time getting on with those airlines. We all know you did. not going to happen.
No shortcuts.

I do luv you AT and value the culture, - and i cant stand how long and drawn out this integration is taking- it sucks for AT pilots over there- i have no good excuse for mgmt handling that this way- and i have no idea where theyre going with this outsourcing stuff----but it's on you to get real regarding seniority.

If....we buy another...Whoever the next airline is- expect a MUCH MORE AGGRESSIVE RESPONSE FROM THE SWAPA RANKS on seniority. Going along has flat out cost us too much as it is. Our ambition to and loyalty to Southwest can't be ignored in the next purchase.
Jmo

 

[humveedriver]

2.5 years off DOH would have been awesome! A small portion got that. The majority lost 4 years or were stapled. How did you come up up with 2.5 for the entire group?

 

[vixin]

I agree 2.5 is low. But I also agree it should have and would have been closer to 4-5. But thats my own opinion. I wont go further with it because it is OVER.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Fact is the SLI is a done deal. No amount of poo flinging will change it, we all have to live with it, and we will all have to live with each other, many of us for a very long time. In that light the sooner we all get over it the better off we will all be because being mad and flinging poo are about as productive as punching a brick wall.

 

[PCL_128]

Really? You're going to lobby to have more of their guys above you?

Don't know about him, but if I was planning to stick around, I wouldn't "lobby" on the other pilot group's behalf, but I would support a fair and equitable process (i.e., arbitration) to determine the outcome. Teaming up with management to hold a gun to someone's head is not honorable, and it certainly isn't "the Golden Rule."

No longer sugarcoating it
AT, You got BETTER than fair and equitable seniority. By a couple of years DOH- I'm not crazy, you didn't all deserve to be stapled, IMO- but 2.5 average off your doh was too generous- should've been 4-5 at least. Especially since we ended up dumping the 71's. At least. Because you didn't bring your own toys to the party. 2/3's are a big liability. im tired of sugarcoating that- and i'll pull the same line ive heard on these forums from the AT Internet tough guys- every pilot ive run into at swa has told me the same thing or more extreme- ie: stapled- so keep on with that angry line- we outnumber you by a LOT, talk pissed here on FI, knock yourself out, but I wouldn't advise trying it on line- and as for JB- my career can't handle us buying another YOUNG pilot group and being so generous-

Fine, you choose to go to the young, growing carrier- that does NOT entitle you to the same quick seniority & upgrade you got at the upstart, when you get bought by the larger more established airline. You don't get to define fair and equitable as being a captain the rest of your life, when if you'd been hired anywhere else, you'd be nowhere close.

JB= another airline most swa pilots bypassed years before in pursuit of the job we actually wanted. And another airline that donated more than a few pilots to the SWA ranks AFTER THEY'D BEEN THERE FOR YEARS.

It's capitalism- there are a lot of risks going to the smaller growing carrier- risk#1 you fail and go under. START OVER. At least there's no sli controversy. Just after that risk appears unlikely comes Risk #2 - you get bought.

If you get bought don't pretend like you get to keep all that quick seniority- or pretend that you didn't have an easier time getting on with those airlines. We all know you did. not going to happen.
No shortcuts.

I do luv you AT and value the culture, - and i cant stand how long and drawn out this integration is taking- it sucks for AT pilots over there- i have no good excuse for mgmt handling that this way- and i have no idea where theyre going with this outsourcing stuff----but it's on you to get real regarding seniority.

If....we buy another...Whoever the next airline is- expect a MUCH MORE AGGRESSIVE RESPONSE FROM THE SWAPA RANKS on seniority. Going along has flat out cost us too much as it is. Our ambition to and loyalty to Southwest can't be ignored in the next purchase.
Jmo

I'm glad I took you off of the ignore list. Every time you post, it reinforces my decision to leave this mess. Thanks!

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

I took some time away from these threads to do some reflection on what turns people, most of whom I suspect are reasonable in their daily lives, into the angry folks you see spouting off on this board. I have come to the conclusion that we actually have two problems history and implementation. First the history part. We all expect history to repeat itself in similar circumstances. Normally we call it experience and draw from it to make decisions based on what we think will happen next. On the SWA side this is the third airline acquisition in company history and in both other cases the pilots of the acquired carrier were either stapled or not brought along. On the AAI side a new law guaranteed the pilot group a right to binding arbitration. Pilot SLI arbitrations involving non bankrupt and even most bankrupt ones have always yielded a result between DOH and relative seniority regardless of either carriers or pilot groups circumstances.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Now based on history many SW pilots expected that management would come to the defense of the SWAPA group and force a staple or not bring along the pilot group. Management obviously felt that was unreasonable and didn't. Based on history the AAI group expected SW management to do nothing so they could drive the process into arbitration. Mangament obviously felt that was unreasonable too and didn't. Neither group got out of SW management what they expected. Add in due to the relative size of the carriers involved in this transaction and the demographics of the carriers this in its best day is a very difficult SLI.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

In theory nuetral arbitrators deciding on a resolution to a dispute seems reasonable. The goal according to the law is "fair and equitable" which seems very reasonable. As such with no further information one would probably expect a wide range of ISL solutions based on the specific carriers involved in the transaction, their circumstances, and the circumstances of both pilot groups. The fact is that hisorically that has not been the case. ISL solutions seem to have more to do with benefiting the company, that by the way is usually paying for the arbitration, by limiting expensive training events than really making any attempt to value pilot jobs against each other.

 

[XGmaninGA]

I took some time away from these threads to do some reflection on what turns people, most of whom I suspect are reasonable in their daily lives, into the angry folks you see spouting off on this board. I have come to the conclusion that we actually have two problems history and implementation. First the history part. We all expect history to repeat itself in similar circumstances. Normally we call it experience and draw from it to make decisions based on what we think will happen next. On the SWA side this is the third airline acquisition in company history and in both other cases the pilots of the acquired carrier were either stapled or not brought along. On the AAI side a new law guaranteed the pilot group a right to binding arbitration. Pilot SLI arbitrations involving non bankrupt and even most bankrupt ones have always yielded a result between DOH and relative seniority regardless of either carriers or pilot groups circumstances.

Excellent analysis. I think you nailed it.