Southwest, another question..

[hiflier]

I would like to say that Orion Driver is not speaking for all military flyers. I am very proud to be a military pilot (23 years flying a variety of a/c with the Air Force, Army, and Navy) but I am embarrassed about his comments. I have had excellent training in the military but agree with Albie about our total lack of experience with civilian equipment and avionics. One of the toughest training programs I have been in was the 737 type course at HPA.
I too believe that if SWA calls you for an interview, they want to hire you and if you don't step all over your unit, you will get the job.
Boots

 

[MLBWINGBORN]

Fellow poolies and others..

I would like to throw in my 2 cents here without taking sides..

After having talked with a number of people involved with the hiring/interviewing at SWA i feel safe in saying this..

SWA doesnt care what you have been flying beyond meeting their mins..At least to a point..

They believe they can teach you how to be an Airline pilot...

What they have less control over and spend the most time trying to figure out is what type of person are you..

If they are convinced that you are a person that will fit well in the SWA family you will get the job..Military or Civilian.. dosent matter..

This is why the interview carrys so much weight in the process..If you do well in the interview you have to have alot of other short comings in order to take you out of the running..

But..If you make it thru the training and get to the line.and they find out you are a A$$hole..you wont have a job long..

SWA takes their family style of culture very seriously and they dont tolerate people that are abusive or caustic...

Very rarely are people dismissed from SWA due to a lack of work related skill..They want to work with you and they believe in making the investment in their people..

But..there have been many that have been dismissed because of a bad attitude or the mistreating of others...

As for military versus civilian..Some of the best pilots i have seen have been both military and civilian..Some of the worst ive seen have also been both military and civilian..

In both cases, i feel the major difference between their performances has been their attitude towards both their flying and the people they fly with..Those with a great attitude generally can be trained to do most anything with an airplane regardless of their prior background ..At least to a point..

Those that approach training with a bad attitude or perhapes a chip on their shoulder dont do as well and arnt supported as well by those doing the training..


As for myself..I will go to great lengths to help someone with a good attitude and support them in reaching what ever goals they choose..

I have little or no interest in trying to help someone with a bad attitude..Lifes too short and there are too many good people that really need the help..

Swa has always tried to hire the right person..Not the correct person..

Just my .02..Not trying to pi$$ anybody off..

Be well yall.

MLBWINGBORN

 

[jball2]

AMEN BROTHER!


That is all

 

[bogieboy]

Nice!

 

[Checks]

Correct me if I am wrong but fighter/attack pilots in the AirForce fly mostly VFR type missions. I am very surprised the Majors are interested in hiring an F-16 guy with only 1200hrs of single pilot, single engine, flight time. If you ask me it is ALL about who these guys know and NOT what they know.
If F-16 drivers practice air to air combat tactics while halfway down an ILS then please correct me.

 

[Chrissy]

OK, I flew the Caravan for two years. It's a great airplane. It has given me some of the best experience of my career. At the time I was disapointed I wasn't getting "multi-time", but it's paying off. It's allowing me to get interviews in a competitive market with the airlines that want PIC turbine time.

However if you want to cover all your bases, put in the time and go to a commuter. Other companies like FEDEX and Frontier want the Multi-Turbine PIC. There's always the possibility that the airlines could change their requirements again, so leave yourself an out, and good luck

 

[Slug]

To change the subject

How about them 'canes?

 

[FlyinBrian]

Military guys DO get hired with fewer hours. BUT....
1.)It usually takes them a lot longer to get these hours, and
2.) The reason they get in with fewer hours is because they get into turbines a lot earlier, so they don' t have the extra 1500 hours that civilians had to put in before they could even smell a turbine... NOT because they are better pilots, or got better training. Training at most regionals is far closer to the training at the majors than military training is.

I ran into the same thing at my REGIONAL airline class, the military guys struggled at least as much as the civilian guys. This is yet another division among pilot ranks that need not exist. I'm not bashing military guys, because I dare say that (as this thread shows), the majority of military guys have a great deal of class. But to those who think that being in the military makes you "uber-pilot," Your attitude will be unwelcome at any airline, especially Southwest. So please everyone, brush the chips off your shoulders and let's just be a unified pilot group.

 

[AlbieF15]

Actually, Brian, I am rather proud of my military flying skills. I can do a lot of things very well that not many people get to do...fly formation, pull 8-9 Gs doing BFM, employ air to air weapons, etc. It takes years of practice and dedication to get good at those skills. The fact is, however, those skills may sharpen my confidence and airmanship, but they don't directly transfer to flying a 737 with a crew.

As far as "instrument flying skill" goes, the typical figher pilot develops a bit of distain for making a big deal out of instrument procedures, etc. In addition to being a death blossom in the air, you are expected to be able to safely operate your jet in any weather above your pilot cat minimums, typically 300-1. (In certain MAJCOMs, flying to published mins is acceptable at home base) I regularly flew an F15 to minimums (and that's "ok, DH, one potato, two...LIGHTS....") in Germany and Alaska. I did this single seat, without an autopilot, and with just enough gas to get to my alternate if the approach didn't work. EVERY FIGHTER PILOT out there is expected to be able to do that. He also has to do some serious IMC work...like running an intercept (IFR) on a tanker and rejoining to refuel IMC. We still are expected to hold, maintain altitude, and in general do eveything we do to ATP standards when we are transiting to and from our working airspace. Someone on the board asked about fighters primary doing VFR ops...simply not true. We are all weather types, and when we do fly IFR it is without many of the helpful avionics (GPS, autopilot, etc) that even some regional jets have as standard equipment.

So...what does a mil guy (especially a fighter pilot) have to learn in training? New systems, new terms, a new way of thinking. He has to learn to be an effective co-pilot...and how to back up another crew member when not flying. He has to learn the ins and outs of working in the ATC system at congested airports (and trusting them instead of just clearing his flight path with his trust APG-63 or 68 radar!) Like anyone else learning new skills, I"m sure a few military guys have looked like bozos during this transition. When I did my A-300 sim for my FedEx interview, I was working my butt off trying to roll out on headings, of all things. I also gooned up the holding entry (and I'm a CFII for heaven's sake...lets just write it off to nerves..) It was DIFFERENT, and therefore a challenge. (Note to guys doing sim prep...a Gulfstream sim flies like a fighter in roll...I'd go do a KC-135 or something else instead). I'm sure if I threw an A300 pilot into an F15 sim and said "go" he'd likely be a bucket of goo for a few minutes, too.

The whole point to the mil verses civilian threat is that many of my skills, while they make me an "uber pilot" in my own eyes, don't really help me that much when I'm trying to learn a new airplane in systems class. The guys who have a greater familiarity with systems and 121 procedures are of course going to do well in the initial training. Also...if you are lazy and don't stay up on your skills and books, a checkride can bite anyone in the a$$, military or civilian alike.

A Fedex buddy who trained in August had a great insight. He's a former 141 guy, and he said at the start of training the class had their "Navy guys", the "F16 guys", the "heavy guys", and the "civilians". Halfway through 727 FE orals they were just a bunch of guys getting their butts kicked by the instructor staff. Most of the community cliquishness disappears about the time the FAA orals begin.

Military pilots get hired in greater numbers because they have been screened agressively and are a known product. Every hour flown and logged can be verified, and while there are strong and weak swimmers in every pool overall the majors are getting someone that has demonstrated he can succeed in a structured environment. Lets not forget airlines hire employees, not just pilots, so the fact most military guys generally have shown up to work on time, stayed off drugs, and have a "pro-authority" outlook (and yes I know there are exceptions) means they generally fit the airline mold. Do most regional guys fit the same profile...overall...proabably yes.

Networking is another major plus for military guys. We of course have a network of buddies and you can generally get some help form an old squadron supervisor or buddy when its time to throw in an app. My former operations officer and squadron commander both work at FedEx. They can not only vouch for my flying, but were able to inform the company about my attitude and work ethic as well. There is a lot more to networking than just "hey...can you put my buddy on the top of the stack". The "common bond" military aviators share also means we quickly relate to each other's experiences and often know each other through mutual buddies or by reputations. For instance, Eagleflip, Zulua320, and Rueterf16 and I never flew Eagles at the same base at the same time. However...our similar experiences and common bond are quick ice breakers when we are catching up and passing on information. I've been on enough WIC support missions and large force expecises to have met a whole bunch of F16 guys, and again...the bonds that you make in the military only help you network when the time comes.

My advice--stay on the boards. Email your contacts. Be nice to everyone. Keep a list of buddies you have flown with that have moved on to bigger and better things. Remember aviation is a small town, and don't take short cuts or do things that will get you a bad label--word gets around quickly about padding time, lying about accidents, poor work habits, etc.

Good luck and fly safe,

Albie

PS--I know I said I"d be off the boards for a while, but I got my yard projects done and I'm not off to training until next week. This "not working" gets boring quick.

 

[FlyinBrian]

My apologies if I came across as sounding like you shouldn't be proud of your skills or your military service. That certainly was not my intent. You should be very proud of what you've been able to accomplish. The people who I would criticize are the ones that think that they are entitled to jobs over civilian pilots purely by virtue of having been in the military, or who think that they are somehow better than their civilian counterparts.

I would accept the argument that the training and experience of the AVERAGE military applicant to a REGIONAL is superior to the AVERAGE training and experience of a civilian applicant to a regional, because of the reasons you've mentioned. It's difficult to know whether the civilian has worked within a rigorous and structured training program or not etc. However, once a civilian pilot gets to the majors, he has typically demonstrated that he can operate in this type of environment, has verifiable flight time etc. etc. In addition, while a civilian applicant would probably kill himself trying to pull 8-9 G's, and might suffer an aneurism trying to accurately deploy air to air or air to ground weaponry... He has developed a significant level of skill flying airline equipment in crappy weather, in busy airspace, and is comfortable with automated systems. These skills (I would argue) are far more valuable to a Boeing or Airbus pilot, seeing as how they are not equipped with any munitions, and would fall to pieces at 8-9 G's. This is why it is very aggravating to civilian pilots, who have also worked their proverbial tails off to get where they are, when miliary pilots treat us as incompetents, or feel entitled to airline jobs over us.

My experience in training was similar to the one you mention, by the time we were 2 weeks into class, we were all airline pilots trying to get through training, and the military/civilian walls broke down, as did many others. (Thank goodness.)