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Southwest, another question..

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Timebuilder

Entrepreneur
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
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A thread on Airnet here on the board mentions flying the Caravan, and the desire of most of the Airnet pilots to fly twins in order to build multi time. Here's the question: after you build the required multi time, would a year spent flying the Caravan (PIC) fulfill the required 1,000 pic turbine, or is it "understood" that this requirement means multi turbine for purposes of the Southwest hiring process?
 
The stated SWA requirments are as follows..

ATP..First class medical

2500 total time or 1500 hours turbine..

Min of 1000 hours PIC in a turbine aircraft..

They hire alot of F-16 drivers and very few of them have any multi time..

They do NOT state anything about required multi time..

If you meet this mins you WILL be called for an interview..

MLBWINGBORN
 
The fact is, a majority of SWA pilots are ex-military and they realize that military training is better than the average civilian training. The average military pilot does emergency procedures simulators every three months while civ pilots do recurrent training annually. Let's face it, airline pilots are hired for one reason and one reason only: To take care of bidness when the sh#$% hits the fan. If you were in charge of hiring who would you want in that situation, someone who has been on the pointy end of the spear or someone who has been padding their logbook with Cessna 152 time?:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Questions?

Din't thank so!

Peace Out
 
Starrbuck,

Don't get mad at the previous poster. There are tons of military guys who are great guys, but a few out there as you mentioned have chips on their shoulders. These guys are usually the ones who walk in to their pilot training bases with "Fly fighters" or some other rah rah stuff on their cars, then leave a year later only to spend the next 3 years raising the gear for a captain on their P-3 or other multi-place aircraft. Once they get an airline job they think they can bully their civilian counterparts and scoff at the guys who remain on active duty. Any military pilot who openly picks a fight with a civilian on these boards is likely venting frustration at their own career disillusionments.

As for me...I fly fighters...but I"ve never seen a glass cockpit. I don't routinely fly into JFK, LAX, or other nightmare arrivals. I don't know jack about deice procedures (except what I memorized for my FEX written) BlueDev8tor met me last week and showed me a buddy's 99 Piper Archer. He showed me the "gucci" autopilot, and explained that it was virutally identical to the one in his CRJ and that I would see it in a JetBlue A320. However...his jaw dropped when I told him I've NEVER flown an airplane with an autopilot (except the altitude hold feature on an eagle...it won't shoot an approach, or control airspeed, or anything....just will hold level flight as long as your airspeed doesn't bleed off). My point is everyone brings something to the fight, and ignore these morons. Trust me...if I'm in indoc training I am going to be picking the brain of the CRJ or regional pilot for systems gouge, not a P-3 guy.

On the other hand...those b@#tards do have one more air to air kill than I do...so I guess I've got to give them some respect! :D

Fly safe and play nice.
 
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First of all, oriondriver needs to get a clue and maybe he should save his comments until he gets a little experience in the real world. the military and the civilian world has the good and the bad. lets see who i want to fly with, someone who has flown a 1000 hours a year shooting 5 approaches a day, or someone who has flown 100 hours a year shooting 5 approaches a year. also, the only thing i have padded is my wallet. im not knocking any military or civilian guys, just oniondriver. have fun. wish you all luck.
 
Just a fact for everyone to ponder.

Oriondriver is somewhat incorrect about SWA. I was in the Aug.3 class (class # 01-16) and out of twenty pilots, only seven had military time. However, all the military pilots had some civ. time.

If Oriondriver goes into the SWA interview with the above attitude, I don't think he will have a career with Southwest Airlines.

Take care all

Jakeair
 
Lets see, last time I checked i was going to the sim once every 6 months. Lets not forget the old 299 ride thrown in there. So what Orion is showing us is that he knows nothing about the civilian world other than the fact that we all padded our logbooks in our 152's. And yes he probably is better at emergencies than most of us. Airplanes that old usually do have a lot more problems than the newer state of the art stuff that most of us are flying. Personally I have never flown a plane that was built in the 1950s or 60s.

Spin them props orion boy, and go chase a sub. lol
 
I am in no way trying to fuel this fire but I would like to state my viewpoint. I am 100% civilian and cannot speak for the training in the military. I could not go to the military because my vision was not good enough. It is my firm belief that whether you trained in the military or as a civilian is of no significance. As a check airman at my present company I have been blessed with the opportunuty to fly with pilots from both sides of the fence. Neither has proven to be better in any given situation based on their previous training. In this business you either HAVE IT or YOU DON'T.
Common sense and good judgement are not just taught. They are things that we acquire from our experiences and, to a point, are inherent in our personalities.
 
He's in already

Oriondriver is already hired at SWA check out the SWA pool list at the top...
 
I can't argue with the value of PIC turbine, I just see a long road getting it.

I can't fault the military guys for their turbine time, either. Truth is, I'd have it myself if I hadn't taken some advice from guys returning from 'Nam in '69. I could have taken an offer for an appointment to any of the academies when I left VFMA in 1970, not because I was so special but because those appointments were going wanting, and I was advised that we weren't being allowed to "take care of business" because politics were ruling the outcome of the war. I trusted their judgement, since they had been there.

So, if I find a way, I'll get to Southwest. If not, I'll fly somewhere else, and think back to the day when General Westmoreland inspected my room during a GI. He said that we were every bit as sharp as his cadets back at USMA. You guys who fly military style do have my respect, even if I don't have yours.
 
Oriondriver,
Youre attitude towards this thread would put a bad taste in anyones mouth. Do you think that civilian pilots never have an emergency? And why do the airlines only train once a year if you think that youre method is much safer. One thing that i will say to you is that you are in for a real eye opener if you think that youre" greatness" is the common denominator of all military pilots. I have flown with both great civ and mil types and would never say that one background is better than the other, but that their experiences are different. I hope your attitude changes when you begin flying for SWA or else your name will be one of those that floats around the pilot lounge.
Stay off of CNN
 
Just for fun (and to play Devil's advocate), I will jump in and (partially) defend Oriondriver.

Fact: If you have a military background and you have the required minimums, you have approximately an 85% or better chance of getting hired by a Major airline. Of the available civ-only pilots with the required minimums, only about 25% ever get picked up by a Major airline.

Fact: The average total time for a civ-only pilot hired at a major airline is approximately twice as much as their military counterparts.

I think those two statistics pretty much speak for themselves and would seem to at least partially vindicate Orion-drivers viewpoint, however much of a jerk he is for actually saying it in such an offensive manner.

There are plenty of fine civilian pilots out there, but I think the real reason that the "average" military pilot swims better in the hiring pool than the "average" civilian pilot is that military pilots are a known quantity having gone through a much more structured training and operational environment. Doesn't necessarily make them better, just makes it easier to know their background.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

KrJoDrAlTr
 
One more thing to add. I think the major reason more Mil. Pilots get hired anywhere has to do with there intense network they have going. This is not meant offensively at all but when military pilots are doing the hiring more military pilots will be hired because they are hiring a "buddy," so to speak. Civilians would do the exact same thing.

Just an observation.
 
I flew the Caravan for a year. I got some really good experience and had a blast flying it. If you are gonna go to a Part 135 and fly the 'van', my advice is to stick around there until you get the 1000 PIC turbine. If you leave before, you may not get a shot at that Turbine PIC for a long time!
 
Oriondriver

I laugh at someone who thinks the front end of a P-3 is "the pointy end of a spear"
You're in for a rude awakening in class my friend, we had a P-3 guy in my class who had a GREAT attitude, yet he struggled. It was his humble attitude that got him through.
You're gonna wish you had civilian training when everyone else is at happy hour relaxing.
There is no difference in the flying ability of military -vs- civilian, it's in the attitudes of the military types, which quickly dissappear when the real world hits them in the face. It's fun to watch.
99% of the military guys I know are great - it's guys like you that give the whole group a bad name sometimes.
You've got a lot to learn my friend, mark my words.
 
I'm not here to defend Oriondriver. He is a jerk and a loser. P-3 pilots are the bottom of the food chain in Naval Aviation anyway. I will relate my own experiences however. Over the past 18 months in my squadron we have had 6 pilots leave active duty and all have been hired by major airlines. Not one of these pilots had over 3000 hours. Of course 3 of them are on furlough now but that's a different story. I myself have been hired by SWA with barely 2500 total and 1050 PIC (I guess, even though I still have no idea when my class will be). What's the moral of this story. Heck I don't know. My gut feeling is that when the majors are hiring they hire as many military pilots as they can and then use the rest of their slots to hire civilian pilots.
My two cents worth. :p :p :p :p :p




ShTiZaAs
 
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I honestly believe that if Southwest calls you for an interview, they already consider you "good enough" to work for them.

Once you're at the interview, it's really "luck of the draw" who you're up against, and what percentage of folks considered by your decision board they can hire. If you "do well" at the interview, I think that will be a lot more important than how many engines your plane has or how many times you went to the simulator each year. My interview team had one ex-military, one non-military, and one People Dept person, and I strongly suspect they all had an "equal" input to my final "grade" for the interview.

So I'd say your best bet is to make sure you "qualify" for the interview, as expeditiously as possible, and then make sure you're prepared for the interview itself. The rest is really out of your control. You could show up with 3000 hours multi-jet time and find out that everyone else in your group is a furloughed 737 pilot. A superior interview performance is going to "blur" any equipment disadvantage you may feel you have.

They wouldn't call you if they weren't interested in you, and they'd skip the interview if they only cared about what kind of planes you flew...
 
I would like to say that Orion Driver is not speaking for all military flyers. I am very proud to be a military pilot (23 years flying a variety of a/c with the Air Force, Army, and Navy) but I am embarrassed about his comments. I have had excellent training in the military but agree with Albie about our total lack of experience with civilian equipment and avionics. One of the toughest training programs I have been in was the 737 type course at HPA.
I too believe that if SWA calls you for an interview, they want to hire you and if you don't step all over your unit, you will get the job.
Boots
 
Fellow poolies and others..

I would like to throw in my 2 cents here without taking sides..

After having talked with a number of people involved with the hiring/interviewing at SWA i feel safe in saying this..

SWA doesnt care what you have been flying beyond meeting their mins..At least to a point..

They believe they can teach you how to be an Airline pilot...

What they have less control over and spend the most time trying to figure out is what type of person are you..

If they are convinced that you are a person that will fit well in the SWA family you will get the job..Military or Civilian.. dosent matter..

This is why the interview carrys so much weight in the process..If you do well in the interview you have to have alot of other short comings in order to take you out of the running..

But..If you make it thru the training and get to the line.and they find out you are a A$$hole..you wont have a job long..

SWA takes their family style of culture very seriously and they dont tolerate people that are abusive or caustic...

Very rarely are people dismissed from SWA due to a lack of work related skill..They want to work with you and they believe in making the investment in their people..

But..there have been many that have been dismissed because of a bad attitude or the mistreating of others...

As for military versus civilian..Some of the best pilots i have seen have been both military and civilian..Some of the worst ive seen have also been both military and civilian..

In both cases, i feel the major difference between their performances has been their attitude towards both their flying and the people they fly with..Those with a great attitude generally can be trained to do most anything with an airplane regardless of their prior background ..At least to a point..

Those that approach training with a bad attitude or perhapes a chip on their shoulder dont do as well and arnt supported as well by those doing the training..


As for myself..I will go to great lengths to help someone with a good attitude and support them in reaching what ever goals they choose..

I have little or no interest in trying to help someone with a bad attitude..Lifes too short and there are too many good people that really need the help..

Swa has always tried to hire the right person..Not the correct person..

Just my .02..Not trying to pi$$ anybody off..

Be well yall.

MLBWINGBORN
 
Correct me if I am wrong but fighter/attack pilots in the AirForce fly mostly VFR type missions. I am very surprised the Majors are interested in hiring an F-16 guy with only 1200hrs of single pilot, single engine, flight time. If you ask me it is ALL about who these guys know and NOT what they know.
If F-16 drivers practice air to air combat tactics while halfway down an ILS then please correct me.
 
OK, I flew the Caravan for two years. It's a great airplane. It has given me some of the best experience of my career. At the time I was disapointed I wasn't getting "multi-time", but it's paying off. It's allowing me to get interviews in a competitive market with the airlines that want PIC turbine time.

However if you want to cover all your bases, put in the time and go to a commuter. Other companies like FEDEX and Frontier want the Multi-Turbine PIC. There's always the possibility that the airlines could change their requirements again, so leave yourself an out, and good luck

:rolleyes:
 
Military guys DO get hired with fewer hours. BUT....
1.)It usually takes them a lot longer to get these hours, and
2.) The reason they get in with fewer hours is because they get into turbines a lot earlier, so they don' t have the extra 1500 hours that civilians had to put in before they could even smell a turbine... NOT because they are better pilots, or got better training. Training at most regionals is far closer to the training at the majors than military training is.

I ran into the same thing at my REGIONAL airline class, the military guys struggled at least as much as the civilian guys. This is yet another division among pilot ranks that need not exist. I'm not bashing military guys, because I dare say that (as this thread shows), the majority of military guys have a great deal of class. But to those who think that being in the military makes you "uber-pilot," Your attitude will be unwelcome at any airline, especially Southwest. So please everyone, brush the chips off your shoulders and let's just be a unified pilot group.
 
Actually, Brian, I am rather proud of my military flying skills. I can do a lot of things very well that not many people get to do...fly formation, pull 8-9 Gs doing BFM, employ air to air weapons, etc. It takes years of practice and dedication to get good at those skills. The fact is, however, those skills may sharpen my confidence and airmanship, but they don't directly transfer to flying a 737 with a crew.

As far as "instrument flying skill" goes, the typical figher pilot develops a bit of distain for making a big deal out of instrument procedures, etc. In addition to being a death blossom in the air, you are expected to be able to safely operate your jet in any weather above your pilot cat minimums, typically 300-1. (In certain MAJCOMs, flying to published mins is acceptable at home base) I regularly flew an F15 to minimums (and that's "ok, DH, one potato, two...LIGHTS....") in Germany and Alaska. I did this single seat, without an autopilot, and with just enough gas to get to my alternate if the approach didn't work. EVERY FIGHTER PILOT out there is expected to be able to do that. He also has to do some serious IMC work...like running an intercept (IFR) on a tanker and rejoining to refuel IMC. We still are expected to hold, maintain altitude, and in general do eveything we do to ATP standards when we are transiting to and from our working airspace. Someone on the board asked about fighters primary doing VFR ops...simply not true. We are all weather types, and when we do fly IFR it is without many of the helpful avionics (GPS, autopilot, etc) that even some regional jets have as standard equipment.

So...what does a mil guy (especially a fighter pilot) have to learn in training? New systems, new terms, a new way of thinking. He has to learn to be an effective co-pilot...and how to back up another crew member when not flying. He has to learn the ins and outs of working in the ATC system at congested airports (and trusting them instead of just clearing his flight path with his trust APG-63 or 68 radar!) Like anyone else learning new skills, I"m sure a few military guys have looked like bozos during this transition. When I did my A-300 sim for my FedEx interview, I was working my butt off trying to roll out on headings, of all things. I also gooned up the holding entry (and I'm a CFII for heaven's sake...lets just write it off to nerves..) It was DIFFERENT, and therefore a challenge. (Note to guys doing sim prep...a Gulfstream sim flies like a fighter in roll...I'd go do a KC-135 or something else instead). I'm sure if I threw an A300 pilot into an F15 sim and said "go" he'd likely be a bucket of goo for a few minutes, too.

The whole point to the mil verses civilian threat is that many of my skills, while they make me an "uber pilot" ;) in my own eyes, don't really help me that much when I'm trying to learn a new airplane in systems class. The guys who have a greater familiarity with systems and 121 procedures are of course going to do well in the initial training. Also...if you are lazy and don't stay up on your skills and books, a checkride can bite anyone in the a$$, military or civilian alike.

A Fedex buddy who trained in August had a great insight. He's a former 141 guy, and he said at the start of training the class had their "Navy guys", the "F16 guys", the "heavy guys", and the "civilians". Halfway through 727 FE orals they were just a bunch of guys getting their butts kicked by the instructor staff. Most of the community cliquishness disappears about the time the FAA orals begin.

Military pilots get hired in greater numbers because they have been screened agressively and are a known product. Every hour flown and logged can be verified, and while there are strong and weak swimmers in every pool overall the majors are getting someone that has demonstrated he can succeed in a structured environment. Lets not forget airlines hire employees, not just pilots, so the fact most military guys generally have shown up to work on time, stayed off drugs, and have a "pro-authority" outlook (and yes I know there are exceptions) means they generally fit the airline mold. Do most regional guys fit the same profile...overall...proabably yes.

Networking is another major plus for military guys. We of course have a network of buddies and you can generally get some help form an old squadron supervisor or buddy when its time to throw in an app. My former operations officer and squadron commander both work at FedEx. They can not only vouch for my flying, but were able to inform the company about my attitude and work ethic as well. There is a lot more to networking than just "hey...can you put my buddy on the top of the stack". The "common bond" military aviators share also means we quickly relate to each other's experiences and often know each other through mutual buddies or by reputations. For instance, Eagleflip, Zulua320, and Rueterf16 and I never flew Eagles at the same base at the same time. However...our similar experiences and common bond are quick ice breakers when we are catching up and passing on information. I've been on enough WIC support missions and large force expecises to have met a whole bunch of F16 guys, and again...the bonds that you make in the military only help you network when the time comes.

My advice--stay on the boards. Email your contacts. Be nice to everyone. Keep a list of buddies you have flown with that have moved on to bigger and better things. Remember aviation is a small town, and don't take short cuts or do things that will get you a bad label--word gets around quickly about padding time, lying about accidents, poor work habits, etc.

Good luck and fly safe,

Albie

PS--I know I said I"d be off the boards for a while, but I got my yard projects done and I'm not off to training until next week. This "not working" gets boring quick. :)
 
My apologies if I came across as sounding like you shouldn't be proud of your skills or your military service. That certainly was not my intent. You should be very proud of what you've been able to accomplish. The people who I would criticize are the ones that think that they are entitled to jobs over civilian pilots purely by virtue of having been in the military, or who think that they are somehow better than their civilian counterparts.

I would accept the argument that the training and experience of the AVERAGE military applicant to a REGIONAL is superior to the AVERAGE training and experience of a civilian applicant to a regional, because of the reasons you've mentioned. It's difficult to know whether the civilian has worked within a rigorous and structured training program or not etc. However, once a civilian pilot gets to the majors, he has typically demonstrated that he can operate in this type of environment, has verifiable flight time etc. etc. In addition, while a civilian applicant would probably kill himself trying to pull 8-9 G's, and might suffer an aneurism trying to accurately deploy air to air or air to ground weaponry... He has developed a significant level of skill flying airline equipment in crappy weather, in busy airspace, and is comfortable with automated systems. These skills (I would argue) are far more valuable to a Boeing or Airbus pilot, seeing as how they are not equipped with any munitions, and would fall to pieces at 8-9 G's. This is why it is very aggravating to civilian pilots, who have also worked their proverbial tails off to get where they are, when miliary pilots treat us as incompetents, or feel entitled to airline jobs over us.

My experience in training was similar to the one you mention, by the time we were 2 weeks into class, we were all airline pilots trying to get through training, and the military/civilian walls broke down, as did many others. (Thank goodness.)
 

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